dropdeadredtx's incredibly deep question!


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shapeShifter79 is offline shapeShifter79 Post #1  January 27,2012, 9:14am
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Dropdeadredtx wrote :
can I choose, say, Sasquatch and......elves, mavbe?
Is belief voluntary or involuntary?

Most Christians says it's voluntary, since they don't like the idea of humans being condemned to Hell for disbelief if they never had the opportunity, the free will, to choose to believe.

Atheists often argue it's involuntary, especially in the context of Pascal's wager.

Pro Involuntary
I can't believe in elves because.. despite knowing a great deal about them via Lord of the Rings, Warcraft, and other sources.. I've run across no compelling evidence they exist. That's true also for many fantastical and magical creatures, although given compelling evidence I'm open to changing my beliefs. I would say that I can't believe in the improbable or impossible.

Pro Voluntary
But it's not entirely true that I can't believe in improbable things. For example, I have believed in such things as winning at international competitions. From that belief, that vision, I was able to take the right steps (training) towards success. And even in actual competition, that vision gave me the extra oomph! to hold on when behind where those of weaker wills crumbled. Similarly, my daughter just won a school-wide competition. I didn't wonder if she could win, I imagined what that would look like, thought about overcoming the obstacles, and then took the necessary steps. (And yes, she had lots of fun!) Most parents "tried". It's like, believing in the improbable, made it suddenly possible!
 
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Reverse_Dragon is offline Reverse_Dragon Post #2  January 27,2012, 1:26pm
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Belief is not an act of will. No matter how much I wanted to (though I can't really imagine I would ever want to), I cannot suddenly decide to believe in god. I could say that I did, and act like I did, but deep down it would be a lie. It's just barely possible that a series of events could occur that would alter my thinking and perceptions to such a degree that I would come to believe in god, but that would be a slow process of change and not a decision.
 
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shapeShifter79 is offline shapeShifter79 Post #3  January 27,2012, 3:57pm
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wrote :
Belief is not an act of will. No matter how much I wanted to (though I can't really imagine I would ever want to), I cannot suddenly decide to believe in god.
Dragon, but one example hardly makes the general case. What of the example I presented of believing in an improbable future? For example, in the case of my daughter's competition this week, I began with the belief, "My daughter can win (against the whole school)" and from there worked out the hows and whys. Obviously, she played a role as well. I've used the same technique in preparing for international competitors who were, at the time, totally out of my league. We tell our kids stories like "The Little Engine That Could". And for all the silliness--after all, thinking we can doesn't always mean we can--more often that not it actually does. It's incredibly empowering to realize how much potential lies within our grasp.
 
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shapeShifter79 is offline shapeShifter79 Post #4  January 27,2012, 4:15pm
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In one history class, a teacher gave out questionaires asking people to rate their opinion of communism and then how they felt about several statements. Most of the class strongly disagreed with communism but unwittingly agreed with all of its tenets! Their beliefs about communism had been formed growing up in the American school system which is, perhaps, a bit biased. I'm sure you'd have gotten the opposite results if you gave the same poll in many communist countries. My point is, if what we're exposed to influences our beliefs, than do we perhaps have some indirect control over what we believe in the choice of what materials and data we analyze when our beliefs are in a formative stage?
 
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AndieIsMe is online now AndieIsMe — Advice Member-Moderator Post #5  January 27,2012, 4:24pm
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A broader case for "it is a choice".

AA and other recovery programs

The 12 step program is largely religious based. There are a lot of people who go through the steps and choose to stay with the religious part of the program.

I think there are people who are generally more likely to gravitate towards religion. Their reasons or the force that draws them is unknown to me. There are also people who tend to not want to be a part of a larger organization such as a church.

I've known people who both have believed all their lives and people who chose at some point in their life to turn to God or religion.
 
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notyet is offline notyet Post #6  January 27,2012, 4:43pm
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Reverse_Dragon wrote :
Belief is not an act of will. No matter how much I wanted to (though I can't really imagine I would ever want to), I cannot suddenly decide to believe in god. I could say that I did, and act like I did, but deep down it would be a lie. It's just barely possible that a series of events could occur that would alter my thinking and perceptions to such a degree that I would come to believe in god, but that would be a slow process of change and not a decision.
i'd love to hear former Born Again Christian- AudioDad- weigh in on this conversation.
 
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notyet is offline notyet Post #7  January 27,2012, 4:46pm
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shapeShifter79 wrote :
Atheists often argue it's involuntary, especially in the context of Pascal's wager.
i need to brush up on my philosophy but i believe that Pascal's Wager is not about belief being either voluntary or involuntary. rather, it is about whether or not it is rational to believe considering the possible consequences of unbelief.
 
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Reverse_Dragon is offline Reverse_Dragon Post #8  January 27,2012, 5:50pm
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ShapeShifter, I would point out that you did not believe that you would win, rather that you could win. It is a crucial distinction. Your belief did not effect the outcome. As you stated in your first post, you took the right steps: you trained. By practicing for the event in question and having a positive attitude you most likely increased your performance and your chances of success. Believing that you absolutely were going to win, however, is a case of arrogance and would likely not have yielded the same benefits. You believed that you could win, but it was conditional upon taking the proper pains to prepare and condition yourself for the competition.
 
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Reverse_Dragon is offline Reverse_Dragon Post #9  January 27,2012, 5:56pm
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AndieIsMe wrote :
A broader case for "it is a choice".

AA and other recovery programs

The 12 step program is largely religious based. There are a lot of people who go through the steps and choose to stay with the religious part of the program.

I think there are people who are generally more likely to gravitate towards religion. Their reasons or the force that draws them is unknown to me. There are also people who tend to not want to be a part of a larger organization such as a church.

I've known people who both have believed all their lives and people who chose at some point in their life to turn to God or religion.
As a former addict I have very, very strong opinions on this subject which I am struggling mightily to hold back. Suffice it to say that the 12 step movement is, in my opinion, a horrific example of religious indoctrination of people who are in dire emotional and psychological jeopardy. The success rate for AA/NA is roughly 5% according to their own internal research, while the success rate for those quiting without the help of the recovery group movement varies between 40%-70%.

And it is not 'largely religious based'... it is flat out a religious institution, in my experience very like a cult in it's practices and behaviors.
 
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Reverse_Dragon is offline Reverse_Dragon Post #10  January 27,2012, 5:58pm
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notyet wrote :
i need to brush up on my philosophy but i believe that Pascal's Wager is not about belief being either voluntary or involuntary. rather, it is about whether or not it is rational to believe considering the possible consequences of unbelief.
Essentially true, but Pascal's Wager contains the unexamined assumption that a person can choose voluntarily whether to believe or not based on the pros and cons of that belief.
 
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