notyet is offline notyet Post #201  February 10,2012, 6:46pm
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shapeShifter79 wrote :
I don't know many atheists who believe in infinite regression. I do know many atheists who consider it possible. There's a gap between the two, but perhaps you weren't able to recognize that nuance before (given your earlier post where you defined atheism by a set of beliefs, which is unsupported by any dictionary, and the majority of us clearly define our position by the lack of one belief.) The universe's expansion is currently accelerating.
question: do you believe that the Big Bang occurred? or do you just consider that it is possible that it happened?

help me understand the nuances.
 
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shapeShifter79 is offline shapeShifter79 Post #202  February 10,2012, 8:27pm
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notyet wrote :
question: do you believe that the Big Bang occurred? or do you just consider that it is possible that it happened? help me understand the nuances.
I am not a physicist, unlike reverse_dragon, so my perspective will likely be a bit different. I have take advanced courses, however, covering Feynman and Hawkings.

Yes, I believe our universe is expanding (>90% likely), expanding at an accelerating rate (>50% likely) , and began as a singularlity or near-singularity (>50% likely). I have nothing riding on these beliefs, so I feel no need to read-up and see if I can reduce those error/uncertainty bars. Limited time and resources, y'know, and family and my girlfriend are tops. And then there's wine, marathons, career, Harry Potter, etc.
 
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Reverse_Dragon is offline Reverse_Dragon Post #203  February 11,2012, 5:14am
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notyet wrote :
question: do you believe that the Big Bang occurred? or do you just consider that it is possible that it happened?

help me understand the nuances.
I don't 'believe' that the Big Bang happened. In all honesty, I don't 'believe' anything. What I do, is provisionally accept the Big Bang as reality and base future experiments and observational criteria on that assumption. Everything that we can now observe (everything!) points to the existence of a gravitational quantum singularity approx. 15.75 billion years ago. Experiments formulated with that in mind confirm it. Theoretical models that use that assumption as a basis successfully predict future events.

We can't observe everything, and it may be that in the future new evidence will come to light that disproves the Big Bang model. (I highly doubt it, however) If that were to happen, physicists like myself would be the very ones announcing 'Big Bang Blown Up! Scientists Scramble for New Explanation!'.

If I had to ascribe a likelihood that our understanding of the beginning of the universe is wholly accurate, I would say it is about .000000000001%

If I had to ascribe a likelihood that the universe began in some kind of singularity, I would say about 99.9999999999%.
 
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shapeShifter79 is offline shapeShifter79 Post #204  February 11,2012, 10:30am
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Reverse_Dragon wrote :
In all honesty, I don't 'believe' anything.

I had to ascribe a likelihood that the universe began in some kind of singularity, I would say about 99.9999999999%.
American Heritage wrote :
Believe - To accept as true or real; to have confidence in the truth or value of something
The definition of belief doesn't imply certainty. I believe that when I insert my key into my car's ignition and turn, that the car will power-up. That's what happened yesterday and the day before and the day before, I have an 80% full tank of gas, and I've seen no battery warning indicators. I believe my lights were off yesterday when I exited the car. But, y'know, it's possible tomorrow will be the 1/1,000 exception to the rule and I'll need to get a jump.

1. Which of the following would you agree with?

A. I believe if I insert and turn my keys, my car will power on.
B. I don't believe if I insert and turn my keys, my car will power on.
C. I believe if I insert and turn my keys, my car won't power on.
D. I don't believe if I insert and turn my keys, my car won't power on.

For me, the answer is: A & D
 
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Reverse_Dragon is offline Reverse_Dragon Post #205  February 11,2012, 11:22am
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shapeShifter79 wrote :
The definition of belief doesn't imply certainty. I believe that when I insert my key into my car's ignition and turn, that the car will power-up. That's what happened yesterday and the day before and the day before, I have an 80% full tank of gas, and I've seen no battery warning indicators. I believe my lights were off yesterday when I exited the car. But, y'know, it's possible tomorrow will be the 1/1,000 exception to the rule and I'll need to get a jump.

1. Which of the following would you agree with?

A. I believe if I insert and turn my keys, my car will power on.
B. I don't believe if I insert and turn my keys, my car will power on.
C. I believe if I insert and turn my keys, my car won't power on.
D. I don't believe if I insert and turn my keys, my car won't power on.

For me, the answer is: A & D
This topic is sort of an exercise in logic-chopping and semantics to me. I don't believe that when I insert and turn my keys my car will start... I expect that it will start. It's slightly different. It may start, and it may not. I will only know one way or the other by performing the experiment. Believing you know what the results of an action will be before you take it can be dangerous. I prefer to reserve judgement until the facts are in.

Do I believe in things that I know to be real? Nope. I know them, belief is not required. I do not have to 'accept the truth' of my girlfriend's existence... because I can see her. (also hear, smell, touch, and when I am lucky, taste) I know that she exists... at least at the moment. She is sitting on the couch wondering why I am looking at her funny. When she leaves the room I feel safe assuming that she still exists even though I can no longer see her. That assumption could be in error, however, as she could have keeled over from an aneurism the second she left my line of sight.

There are things that I know, and there are things that I don't know. I don't know the things that I don't know right up until I know them, and I know the things I know right up until I don't know them anymore. This argument may seem pedantic or even pointless to some, but... well, such is life.
Last edited by Reverse_Dragon; February 11,2012 at 11:29am.
 
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harnomygirl is offline harnomygirl Post #206  February 11,2012, 11:46am
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Is there anything in your life that requires belief?
 
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shapeShifter79 is offline shapeShifter79 Post #207  February 11,2012, 11:54am
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Reverse_Dragon wrote :
This topic is sort of an exercise in logic-chopping and semantics to me. I don't believe that when I insert and turn my keys my car will start... I expect that it will start.
I should've included definition #3, then--"To expect or suppose; think: I believe they will arrive shortly."

There are similiarities and differences in our perspective, but in both our cases (as with most scientists) we would not say "we' know this is exactly how the universe was formed" but rather "this is the most likely possibility" or sometimes (as in the case of the actual textbook I quoted) "these are the most likely possibilities."

I believe some of them (because most of the evidence points that way) but not strongly, and would be open to revising my beliefs. You do not believe them, but see them as very, very likely (with the recognition there are certainly things we do not know). Somewhat different. Somewhat the same.
Last edited by shapeShifter79; February 11,2012 at 12:03pm.
 
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Ephemera is offline Ephemera Post #208  February 11,2012, 11:58am
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I believe that the squirrels are eating up my attic. I can hear them. I see the little creeps pop in and out of the hole they've made. But I cannot see inside the attic as there is no egress except the hole. So I do not know that they are eating up the attic but I believe that they are. So strongly do I believe that I've got a lovely poison bomb awaiting spring to poke into the hole and then I believe that they will get quite a nice little shock. I believe that I am looking forward to that.

I do not believe that any godlike thing put the squirrels into my attic, or told them to go into my attic or lured them in with peanuts. I do not believe that any godlike thing made the squirrels or the hole or my attic. Or the poison bomb. Or me.
 
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shapeShifter79 is offline shapeShifter79 Post #209  February 11,2012, 12:01pm
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Ephemera wrote :
I do not believe that any godlike thing put the squirrels into my attic, or told them to go into my attic or lured them in with peanuts.
http://www.demotivatingposters.com/w...-religious.jpg
 
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Ephemera is offline Ephemera Post #210  February 11,2012, 12:09pm
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Such a polite squirrel, not at all like the ones in my attic.
 
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