lindseyk is offline lindseyk Post #11  January 26,2012, 4:55pm

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AudioDad wrote :
In contrast, the various Crusades and Inquisitions were undertaken specifically in the name of a particular religious faith - generally Catholic,though there were various sects within the Church that participated in the Inquisitorial activities. Religiously inspired violence and bloodshed has persisted into the modern day with more notable examples of Darfur, the Sudanese civil war of the mid-80's, the Protestant/Catholic conflicts in Northern Ireland in the 70's - though this conflict had a major political component as well.
This is true and there is absolutely no way to deny it. But, many - and I would even venture to say the majority of Christians do not support these things and some do speak out against them. There are numerous Christian pacifist groups who do not support violence of any kind. I don't think these acts of violence can honestly be justified by Scripture or any theological point of view - keyword here being honestly, though many have distorted Scripture in horrific ways to justify their evil actions. Violence and bloodshed like this has caused much outrage and sorrow among believers, myself included.

I don't think religiously-inspired violence is the sole preserve of Christianity however, although Christians certainly have plenty to answer for.
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lindseyk is offline lindseyk Post #12  January 26,2012, 5:08pm

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What I find interesting is the argument that when it's atheists who have political power and persecute religious people (any religion), their atheism has nothing to do with the persecution. It's inspired by their political views. When religious people (again, any religion) have political power, everything bad they do is unequivocally a result of their religious views. It could never be their politics. (Bearing in mind AudioDad's acknowledgement of the situation in Ireland, which is both political and religious. There's always an exception. )

Why is that? I'm genuinely curious. Why is it that atheists get off the hook and get to blame their bad actions on something other than their atheism, while religious people can never have any other reason but their faith for the bad things they do?

For the record, I don't think all atheists are bad. I don't think all Christians are good either. I'm just curious why one group has recourse to several different reasons for doing what they do, but the other has only one.
 
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Reverse_Dragon is offline Reverse_Dragon Post #13  January 26,2012, 5:24pm
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My mistake... I also forgot:

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I think you are running out of atheists for your argument... I am not. Shall we keep going?
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Reverse_Dragon is offline Reverse_Dragon Post #14  January 26,2012, 5:30pm
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lindseyk wrote :
What I find interesting is the argument that when it's atheists who have political power and persecute religious people (any religion), their atheism has nothing to do with the persecution. It's inspired by their political views. When religious people (again, any religion) have political power, everything bad they do is unequivocally a result of their religious views. It could never be their politics. (Bearing in mind AudioDad's acknowledgement of the situation in Ireland, which is both political and religious. There's always an exception. )

Why is that? I'm genuinely curious. Why is it that atheists get off the hook and get to blame their bad actions on something other than their atheism, while religious people can never have any other reason but their faith for the bad things they do?

For the record, I don't think all atheists are bad. I don't think all Christians are good either. I'm just curious why one group has recourse to several different reasons for doing what they do, but the other has only one.
This is an excellent question. My answer would be that it isn't because of their religion that horrible things are done by theistic tyrants and zealots. They commit these atrocities for the same reason as anyone else: money, power, hatred, fear, stupidity, and indifference.

The key factor is this: They have religion to use as justification for their actions. Atheists have no such convenient explanation for war, oppression, and genocide; therefor there true motives are simply more apparent.
 
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Reverse_Dragon is offline Reverse_Dragon Post #15  January 26,2012, 5:32pm
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lindseyk wrote :
This is true and there is absolutely no way to deny it. But, many - and I would even venture to say the majority of Christians do not support these things and some do speak out against them.
Agreed! Why can't you accept that this is just as true of atheists?
 
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lindseyk is offline lindseyk Post #16  January 26,2012, 6:07pm

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Reverse_Dragon wrote :
Agreed! Why can't you accept that this is just as true of atheists?
I never said I didn't accept that it is just as true of atheists.

I don't think I've said anywhere that the vast majority of atheists are horrible people who are just out to make the lives of religious people miserable. I haven't said it because I don't believe it.

I think that among atheists, rather like among Christians and other religious people, there are those who intentionally set out to cause harm to others, but they do not represent the majority. It is a minority of Christians who intentionally abuse Scripture to inflict terrible acts on others. It is not the majority. Likewise, I feel quite certain it is a minority of atheists who intentionally do violence to others who do not share their views, although I realize that to speak of atheism as a particular set of 'views' is something of a misnomer in itself. Again, it is not the majority.

When it comes right down to it, I believe one of the most potentially dangerous things out there is power, be it financial, political, social, or anything else. People with power have the capacity to do great good, but all too often they use their power for evil. Political power certainly lends itself to this sort of thing. It doesn't matter what creed people adhere to or even if they adhere to no creed at all. There's a reason for the saying, "Power corrupts." It just does. It doesn't matter who has it. Everyone is susceptible to the seductive charms of power. At bottom, it is selfishness that drives the corruption and no one is immune to selfishness.
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AudioDad is offline AudioDad Post #17  January 26,2012, 6:10pm
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lindseyk wrote :
What I find interesting is the argument that when it's atheists who have political power and persecute religious people (any religion), their atheism has nothing to do with the persecution. It's inspired by their political views.
I don't think anyone's made that assertion in this thread....not yet anyway. People of all ideologies do all sorts of horrible things for a variety of reasons.

lindseyk wrote :
When religious people (again, any religion) have political power, everything bad they do is unequivocally a result of their religious views. It could never be their politics.Why is that? I'm genuinely curious. Why is it that atheists get off the hook and get to blame their bad actions on something other than their atheism, while religious people can never have any other reason but their faith for the bad things they do?
I was specifically referring to the actions of Stalin, Lenin and Pol Pot. These are typically the three main bogeymen believer's offer up as examples of "Bad Atheists." If you examine the historical record of these men and their actions, you find that they indeed did not carry out their atrocities in the name of atheism. Indeed, doing anything "in the name of atheism" makes no sense at all (see below). Nor, as I've already pointed out, did they target just the religious population. They persecuted and killed any group they felt would be a threat to their political goals - believers were but one of the groups that were targeted.

I don't think one can make generalizations about all atheists based on the actions of these men. Nor can the Crusades and Inquisitions be used to make generalizations about the motives behind the actions of all believers. I think part of the confusion is the persistent notion that atheism is a belief system. As some of us have pointed out (far too) many times, it's simply a lack of belief in a god or gods. If you as a Christian lack belief in the Hindu god Brahman, guess what......you're an atheist too! Welcome to the club, we have jackets, lapel pins and a secret handshake.

Atheism has no clergy, no holy books, no real central tenets or creeds, no liturgy or rituals. Politically, atheists are far left, far right, and everything in between. Because it's not a belief system itself, it makes no sense at all to claim that someone does something 'in the name of Atheism' - there's simply nothing to do anything in the name of.

There's no ancient book telling us to go forth and evangelize the world in xxxxxxx's name. Nor is there any book telling us that we shall not suffer a witch (or other heretic) to live, no proscriptions about favoring one system of thought over another. We aren't told who or how to love, who we can be friends with, that we should shun or persecute those who don't think the way we do, or what gods we should lack a belief in.
 
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notyet is offline notyet Post #18  January 26,2012, 6:33pm
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Reverse_Dragon wrote :
...My answer would be that it isn't because of their religion that horrible things are done by theistic tyrants and zealots. They commit these atrocities for the same reason as anyone else: money, power, hatred, fear, stupidity, and indifference.

The key factor is this: They have religion to use as justification for their actions. Atheists have no such convenient explanation for war, oppression, and genocide; therefor there true motives are simply more apparent.
Thank you for this- sincerely!

here is the crux of the matter for me. evil men will always find ways for their ends and justification for their means. that does not make the ways and justifications evil, per se.

if i have a hammer and use it to drive a nail or i swing it at a person, is the hammer evil? or is the one doing the swinging evil?

so with religion. it can be a great force for good. someone above listed many supposedly atheistic people who have contributed to the greater good. i posit that the list of the religious who have made similar significant positive contributions to society would be just as large. i will not at this time make a list. i should not have to.

the thing is- there are evil men. there are evil women. there are evil people.

and they will use what they can to justify their actions.

even religion.

even a lack of religion.
Last edited by notyet; January 31,2012 at 6:03pm. Reason: typos
 
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lindseyk is offline lindseyk Post #19  January 26,2012, 6:55pm

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AudioDad wrote :
I don't think anyone's made that assertion in this thread....not yet anyway. People of all ideologies do all sorts of horrible things for a variety of reasons.
This is true.

I do think that sometimes some Christians use their religion to mask their true motives, which actually have nothing at all to do with the teachings of Jesus, which is nothing short of appalling. I guess that's why I find myself saying that no one could honestly justify such evil with Scripture. People try and some are very persuasive, but in the end, there is just no way that the evil done in the name of Christ bears any resemblance to the message He came to proclaim. I just don't think it's right to apply a negative generalization to all Christians based on the bad actions of a minority within the group. It would be no more right to do the same to all atheists - or any other group, really.

AudioDad wrote :
I don't think one can make generalizations about all atheists based on the actions of these men. Nor can the Crusades and Inquisitions be used to make generalizations about the motives behind the actions of all believers. I think part of the confusion is the persistent notion that atheism is a belief system. As some of us have pointed out (far too) many times, it's simply a lack of belief in a god or gods. If you as a Christian lack belief in the Hindu god Brahman, guess what......you're an atheist too! Welcome to the club, we have jackets, lapel pins and a secret handshake.
I can't say I've ever thought of myself as an atheist. lol

Re. the above bolded part: Thank you. I do find that quite often Christians are labeled as a bad group generally based on such actions as you mention above, so it's refreshing to see a different point of view from someone who is not a believer.

AudioDad wrote :
There's no ancient book telling us to go forth and evangelize the world in xxxxxxx's name. Nor is there any book telling us that we shall not suffer a witch (or other heretic) to live, no proscriptions about favoring one system of thought over another. We aren't told who or how to love, who we can be friends with, that we should shun or persecute those who don't think the way we do, or what gods we should lack a belief in.
No one's ever told me who to be friends with. lol They didn't preach that from the pulpit at my church growing up, nor at any church I've attended since. I don't tell other people that they have to believe as I do or we can't be friends, nor do any of the other Christians I've been lucky enough to know. As far as I know, the Bible instructs us to love our neighbours as ourselves and pretty much everyone is our neighbour, even those we would consider enemies. From what Jesus said, I believe I'm supposed to do good to those who persecute me, be merciful, turn the other cheek, and so on. I do believe that Jesus is, as He said, the Way, the Truth, and the Life, but that's probably no surprise. I don't, however, have any business shunning or persecuting those who don't think the same.
 
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Reverse_Dragon is offline Reverse_Dragon Post #20  January 26,2012, 8:04pm
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Dangit... AudioDad, don't blab about the handshake!
 
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