shapeShifter79 is offline shapeShifter79 Post #41  January 27,2012, 1:47pm
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AndieIsMe wrote :
To liken God to the Tooth Fairy
"I do not see any difference between the choice to believe in the Baptist vision of God or to believe in Zeus or Leprechauns. If you see one, I'd love to hear your explanation." -- ShapeShifter79

Besides the obvious, that one involves dodging lighting bolts, and another searching for pots of gold.

AndieIsMe wrote :
and how "dumb" (ignorant, etc) it is to believe in either suggest that people who believe in God are dumb.
"As for the man, do I respect him? There's much more to a man or woman than a single belief. Perhaps he is quite friendly in his demeanor. Perhaps he loves to read at the library, and tell children stories of the creatures that lay at the edge of the Earth. Perhaps he also puts up a Christmas tree there and buys small trinkets for the kids who come to his December reading." -- ShapeShifter79

Nobody's making that hasty generalization, that one act defines a man, as far as I can see.

And you're the only one in this thread using the words "dumb" or "ignorant"?
Last edited by shapeShifter79; January 27,2012 at 1:52pm.
 
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AndieIsMe is online now AndieIsMe — Advice Member-Moderator Post #42  January 27,2012, 2:05pm
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Reverse_Dragon wrote :
I don't believe in them.

Their nonexistance does not require my belief. The same goes for sasquatch, UFO's, telepathy, mediums, astrology, ghosts, demons, yetis, birthing engrams, Lord Xenu, vampires, zombies, werewolfs, goblins, elves, past lives, and compassionate republicans.

Dropdeadredtx wrote :
Can I pick and choose? If theists can pick and choose to believe in Jesus and a Christian God but not Allah or Buddha, can I choose, say, Sasquatch and......elves, mavbe? I'll take Elves for $500.
Just two that seem to suggest that there is something lacking in someone who believes in God.
 
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AndieIsMe is online now AndieIsMe — Advice Member-Moderator Post #43  January 27,2012, 2:07pm
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shapeShifter79 wrote :
Besides the obvious, that one involves dodging lighting bolts, and another searching for pots of gold.
Gold teeth? Gold teeth biting on aluminum foil?
 
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Reverse_Dragon is offline Reverse_Dragon Post #44  January 27,2012, 5:36pm
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AndieIsMe wrote :
Scientific proof of god's non-existence | Machines Like Us

An article written by a Physics professor Mano Singham | Machines Like Us
From the article you cite:
  1. We cannot prove that god does not exist.
  2. Hence it is rational to believe that god exists.
  3. Scientists should stick to the world of data and not venture to question god's existence since that enters the realm of philosophy, not science.
The author states that if a scientist is asked: 'In your scientific opinion, does God exist?' the proper answer should always be, 'I don't know. I don't have any data on the subject.'
I will readily concede the first point, and in fact have done so previously (See here, here, and here.)

It seems to me you have a case of selective perception in this matter. The author states implicitly that it is impossible to prove that god does not exist.

While he goes on to say that failure to prove god's nonexistence is not justification for believing in him, at no point does he do anything that attempts to prove god does not exist.

In response the Hawking quote, I have some familiarity with this topic. Though I have never met the man himself, I have had the great honor of corresponding with Sam Blackburn, Hawking's technical adviser, regarding my work with the VEMA survey. The quote you are most likely referring to regards the nature of vacuum energy and chaotic space-time metrics. What he said was that current cosmological models do not require the existence of a creator in order to be valid. In other words, no first cause is needed. That is all he said... anything else is journalistic doggerel.
 
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Reverse_Dragon is offline Reverse_Dragon Post #45  January 27,2012, 5:42pm
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AndieIsMe wrote :
Just two that seem to suggest that there is something lacking in someone who believes in God.
I do believe that something is lacking in those who believe in god. That 'something' is skepticism. Just as you would say that something is lacking in those who do not believe: faith.

This is the fundamental crux of our difference in worldview. I place no value judgment upon it. To me skepticism is crucial to a properly lived life, just as to you faith is essential. I sometimes feel pity for people who are so credulous as to believe these things, just as you in all likelihood feel pity for me because I don't have the love of Jesus/God/Holy Spirit/Whatever in my life.

This is a natural result of us not being the same person, and should not be taken as a slight against your character. It is certainly not intended that way.
 
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notamaninpower is offline notamaninpower Post #46  January 28,2012, 10:18am
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neardc wrote :
You are conflating a belief in the existence of Jesus with a belief in God. They are not the same thing. You also appear to misunderstand the difference between "something being written down" and the study of history. Written documents are a tool in the study of history, but their mere presence does not necessarily establish proof in the study of historical events and individuals.

THANK YOU neardc!!
 
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dovegirl is online now dovegirl — Advice Member-Moderator Post #47  March 13,2012, 11:47am
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notyet wrote :


did i get that right?
To me, this poster seems to be specifically poking fun at the Big Bang Theory for the origin of the universe.

Which I think is utterly ridiculous, because the theory was in fact first proposed by a Catholic priest. It's a cosmological theory, not a theological one, and there are many many people of all different religions who manage to accept this theory and yet still keep their faith.

Atheism is an individual refusal of faith, no more and no less.
 
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Reverse_Dragon is offline Reverse_Dragon Post #48  March 13,2012, 3:44pm
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Well said Dovegirl!

The Big Bang theory is synonomous with atheism in the minds of many religious people for two primary reasons:

1. Because it is an account of creation that differs from the one described in Genesis it is seen as anti-religious. In point of fact the Big Bang cosmological model is an attempt to explain how the universe came to be as it is. It makes no claims as to why. There is no reason one cannot simply believe that the Big Bang went boom, as it were, because God lit the fuse. (although personally, to quote Pierre-Simon Laplace 'I have no need of that particular hypothesis.')

2. The formal Big Bang equations were formulated by Alexander Friedmann, a physicist in early twentieth century Russia. Russian communists are often conflated with atheism... to the dismay of many nonbelievers.

It is an overlooked bit of history that you bring up. In point of fact, Friedmann's work was entirely based on the 'primeval atom' idea of a Belgian priest: Monsignor Georges Henri Joseph Édouard Lemaître. This stunningly brilliant theologian and astronomer actually derived Hubble's Law two years before Edwin Hubble himself published his work. In Lemaître's 1931 Annus Mirabilis he laid out his proposal that the matter and energy of the cosmos could have originated from a single time and place he christened the 'primeval atom'.

Indeed, much of the early resistance to the Big Bang within the scientific community stemmed from the idea that if the then prevalent Steady State model were abolished, it would give religious apologists the opportunity to point to the Big Bang as a sort of 'smoking gun' of creation. The term 'Big Bang' itself was coined by Fred Hoyle, a proponent of Steady State, as a way of ridiculing the theory.
 
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Reverse_Dragon is offline Reverse_Dragon Post #49  March 14,2012, 9:36am
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notyet wrote :


did i get that right?


Did I get THAT right?

...seems an appropriate response.
 
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dovegirl is online now dovegirl — Advice Member-Moderator Post #50  March 14,2012, 10:45am
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Reverse_Dragon wrote :
Well said Dovegirl!

It is an overlooked bit of history that you bring up.

.
Thanks! As a scientist myself, I have a questioning mind and always try to find out as much as I can about a topic. This is a pet peeve of mine, that some people (both religious and otherwise), make generalized statements about unfamiliar groups of people like the one exemplified in the poster, which have very little if any basis in fact. This then perpetuates the misinformation instead of promoting understanding and tolerance between people with differing viewpoints.

I was raised a Protestant Christian. I was skeptical, but I read the Bible cover to cover. Twice. I went through confirmation class at church just so I could use the opportunity to learn about other churches (Catholic, Lutheran, Episcopalian, Greek Orthodox). I took multiple comparative religion classes and studied Islam, Judiasm, Hinduism, Buddism, and many smaller faith practices. I did this as a way of "collecting knowledge" ....did I have faith? What do others believe and why?

I now identify as agnostic.

Through all this time I accepted the big bang theory as the current working cosmological model because it has been scientifically validated. That had no bearing on my individual faith quest.

Personally, I have respect for someone who is strong in their faith....somone who is questioning their faith...or someone who has no faith. I may not agree with you, but no two people in this world agree on everything. But if you make judgments about an entire group of people based on ignorance because you couldn't even take the time to get your facts straight, I will lose my respect for you.

Anyone who has a strong opinion about something should, by default, also know the opposing opinions very well. Otherwise, how do you measure the strength of your conclusion?
Last edited by dovegirl; March 14,2012 at 10:50am. Reason: those " n'ts" are kinda important.
 
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