Philosophical arguments against Christian God


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dowahsippydo is offline dowahsippydo Post #1  January 14,2012, 5:11pm
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The basis of Christianity is salvation through acknowledging Jesus' sacrifice for your sins. Here are some thoughts on this.

1. All humans are born with original sin going back to Adam and Eve. Why are we all accountable for the "sins of our fathers?"

2. Why didn't God simply forgive Adam / Eve's sins? Why even require a sacrifice?

3. The default position is hell, and we have to chose to be saved. If God loves us so much, why not make the default position heaven, and send the transgressors to hell?

4. Why not do a better job of revealing himself to us? He could easily appear to us and take away the guesswork. After all, he walked with Adam in the garden of Eden yet Adam still ate the apple. If Adam can have such an intimate relationship with God and still sin, it appears that personally seeing God has no impact on free will.
 
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shapeShifter79 is offline shapeShifter79 Post #2  January 14,2012, 9:11pm
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dowahsippydo wrote :
3. The default position is hell, and we have to chose to be saved. If God loves us so much, why not make the default position heaven, and send the transgressors to hell?
According to whom? According to the Pope, Catholic Catechisms, and 97% of Catholics the default (an unbaptized baby) doesn't go to Hell. Catholicism was Christianity for many centures and is still its largest subgroup. Mormons do not believe in the concept of original sin.
Last edited by shapeShifter79; January 14,2012 at 9:17pm.
 
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Reverse_Dragon is offline Reverse_Dragon Post #3  January 15,2012, 8:46am
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Excellent points, all.

To expand on them a bit, I'll say the following.

I've always been bothered by the idea that the crucifiction 'saved' mankind. What, precisely, did Jesus' sacrifice accomplish? We still must obey the ten commandments and so on, right?

'Jesus died for your sins!'
So... we're all good then... right?

As for god doing a better job revealing himself... my mother constantly questions my atheism, saying "But what if you're wrong?!"

My answer?

"If I'm wrong, then when I die, I will stand before god with my head held high and demand he explain why he created a universe whose secrets are accessable only through scientific inquiry, and yet punishes those who fail to recognize his existance despite there being no rational evidence supporting the supernatural."
 
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llw11 is offline llw11 Post #4  January 15,2012, 10:24am
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dowahsippydo wrote :
4. Why not do a better job of revealing himself to us? He could easily appear to us and take away the guesswork. After all, he walked with Adam in the garden of Eden yet Adam still ate the apple. If Adam can have such an intimate relationship with God and still sin, it appears that personally seeing God has no impact on free will.
because faith would no longer be required as he'd be right there in front of us. to the christian god, faith is a virtue for whatever reason..revealing himself would make things too easy.
 
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llw11 is offline llw11 Post #5  January 15,2012, 10:27am
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Reverse_Dragon wrote :
As for god doing a better job revealing himself... my mother constantly questions my atheism, saying "But what if you're wrong?!"

My answer?

"If I'm wrong, then when I die, I will stand before god with my head held high and demand he explain why he created a universe whose secrets are accessable only through scientific inquiry, and yet punishes those who fail to recognize his existance despite there being no rational evidence supporting the supernatural."
ok so what if you take pascal up on his wager and simply believed what you were told regardless of evidence to the contrary, would you even want to spend an ETERNITY with such a god? a god that would manipulate you into choosing him.
 
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dowahsippydo is offline dowahsippydo Post #6  January 15,2012, 11:09am
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shapeShifter79 wrote :
According to whom? According to the Pope, Catholic Catechisms, and 97% of Catholics the default (an unbaptized baby) doesn't go to Hell. Catholicism was Christianity for many centures and is still its largest subgroup. Mormons do not believe in the concept of original sin.
Very well, let me modify my original statement. At a certain age, however you chose to define it, a person is expected to make a choice to accept Jesus. At this point, the default is hell. I define "default" as the result of taking no action.
 
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dowahsippydo is offline dowahsippydo Post #7  January 15,2012, 11:12am
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llw11 wrote :
because faith would no longer be required as he'd be right there in front of us. to the christian god, faith is a virtue for whatever reason..revealing himself would make things too easy.
However, as I pointed out in my original post, Adam and Eve knew God, who walked with them in the garden. They still sinned, therefore one of the following must be true:

1. Certain knowledge of God has no impact on free will.
2. Adam and Eve had no free will and ate the apple at the will of God.

If #2 is correct, then God made them eat the apple, then punished all humanity for doing something over which they had no control.
 
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Reverse_Dragon is offline Reverse_Dragon Post #8  January 15,2012, 2:29pm
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llw11 wrote :
ok so what if you take pascal up on his wager and simply believed what you were told regardless of evidence to the contrary, would you even want to spend an ETERNITY with such a god? a god that would manipulate you into choosing him.
Pascal's wager is inherently flawed. It contains unexamined assumptions. To wit:

A person can choose what to believe conciously. This is a fallacy. I could say that I believed in god because I feared hell, but it would be a lie. I couldn't suddenly begin to believe in god anymore than I could suddenly start believing in Santa Claus.

That god could be fooled. If there is agod, he/she/it would know the turnings of my secret heart, and a lip-service belief formed because of fear of the consequences would likely not please him/her/it very much.
 
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shapeShifter79 is offline shapeShifter79 Post #9  January 19,2012, 2:10pm
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dowahsippydo wrote :
3. The default position is hell, and we have to chose to be saved. If God loves us so much, why not make the default position heaven, and send the transgressors to hell?
shapeshifter79 wrote :
According to whom? According to the Pope, Catholic Catechisms, and 97% of Catholics the default (an unbaptized baby) doesn't go to Hell. Catholicism was Christianity for many centures and is still its largest subgroup. Mormons do not believe in the concept of original sin.
dowahsippydo wrote :
Very well, let me modify my original statement. At a certain age, however you chose to define it, a person is expected to make a choice to accept Jesus. At this point, the default is hell. I define "default" as the result of taking no action.
The Catholic church's list of sins includes--"fornication, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, factions, envy..."

If we're restricting our discussion to only those of age and capable to "make a choice to accept jesus", I see only the "Saved" or "Sinners" and question whether this third category "The Default" that you say would go to Hell according to most Catholics exists. Try to imagine a human being who is of age and capable of making a choice to accept or reject Jesus, who has never been angry, selfish, or jealous. And who are supposedly condemned! (Note--those never exposed to "the word" can't "make a choice to accept Jesus" and aren't considered condemned).

What happens to a non-existant group of people can hardly be used as an argument against God's love.

If you wish to invoke such people, the burden rests on you to identify them.
Last edited by shapeShifter79; January 19,2012 at 2:21pm.
 
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shapeShifter79 is offline shapeShifter79 Post #10  January 19,2012, 2:28pm
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( As an aside, I'm a happy "sinner", because I consider one of those sins a virtue! )
 
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