thedanceris is offline thedanceris Post #51  November 24,2011, 5:41am
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Diana_P wrote :
Why is free will important? Why is free will a good thing? These are both very good questions.
we don't choose many things but we can determine what we have passion for, what energizes us, .... maybe the things we have passion for are the things we are surrounded by and maybe not. we are most happy and successful when we find our passion and go forth to participate in that passion. many people do what they see or are surrounded by but are not necessarily happy. free will is the ability to find ourselves and pursue our passions to contribute to life. the ability to go beyond our surroundings,... and do what we love which often enables us do excellent work and makes us happy ,... and as a result we contribute great things to people and society.
 
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suzyque is offline suzyque Post #52  November 24,2011, 7:43pm
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I think free will does exist. God created us the ability to choose good choices vs bad choices no matter what the circumstances. However, God did create us with a sinful nature thus insuring that we will never choose good 100% of the time. We need to rely on His strength to choose good over evil. He doesn't expect us to be perfect.

I many times think about this free will in my dating relationships. I have prayed to God asking Him if my current boyfriend is the one He has in mind for me. Really, I'm asking God to choose for me, to give me some sort of sign. This hasn't happened yet. No signs from above! It has finally dawned on me that God merely wants me to choose a man who loves Him first, family second and the rest of the details He is leaving up to me! Free will in dating!
Last edited by suzyque; November 24,2011 at 7:58pm.
 
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Reverse_Dragon is offline Reverse_Dragon Post #53  November 26,2011, 12:41pm
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harnomygirl wrote :
Thank you. I'd really like to know if hermes01 thinks that was the point of his experiment. I'd just like to wrap that up.

Edit: It's a little odd to me that you both appear to embrace the value of detachment and its impact on free will, and yet disagreed enough for him to assume that you could not possible be a kindred spirit.
Many make the assumption that outspoken skeptics such as myself have no appreciation for the wisdom inherent in the various religious traditions of the world. On the contrary, because as an atheist I am not restricted to any particular set of values or any individual ideology; thus freeing me to find and adopt any idea or practice that seems to be wise or helpful.

Some call it 'cafeteria philosophy'... I can live with that. =]
 
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Reverse_Dragon is offline Reverse_Dragon Post #54  November 26,2011, 12:49pm
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harnomygirl wrote :
Since we can't be sure when hermes01 will return, would it be possible for you to read his posts and see whether or not detachment could prove or disprove anything he believes? If not, why do you suppose he might have expected it to do so?

Do you think that his idea of detachment might differ from yours, or does Zen affect people in different ways depending on their initial state of mind?
To your first point: I have no idea what Hermes01 believes. His posts are typically quite cryptic... at least to me. Almost like little koans. I wouldn't presume to speak for someone who's beliefs seem to be quite complex and unique.

As for meditation affecting people in different ways: It absolutely does. Part of this is due to the differences in meditative practice, which a quick google search will show vary wildly. Some practitioners of meditation believe they can transcend physical reality, travel astrally, communicate with past lives... any number of metaphysical architectures. For me, it is simply about increasing my awareness of self, and of my deepest motivations. Additionally, everyone has their unique existential landscape, if you will, and must find their own method of mapping or traversing it.
 
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Bad BA is offline Bad BA Post #55  February 13,2012, 4:31pm
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So here is the short version;
The Cognitive Psychologist sez;
Free will is an illusion that is naturally selective....
Get it?
The Theologist sez;
Free will is you.

who are you?

Both answers are correct!

Good job!
Last edited by Bad BA; February 13,2012 at 4:32pm. Reason: thunk it out
 
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Diana_P is offline Diana_P Post #56  March 2,2012, 2:31pm
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The more I contemplate the argument on free will the more I am convinced that perhaps we will never know.

Is free will a question of biology, physics, or metaphysics? Can the question truly be answered without first acknowledging the existence of the soul or a Creator?

When I look at the question purely from a biological standpoint it doesn’t appear as though we do have free will. As a biological organism we are merely reacting to internal or external stimulus. If you are thirsty you are compelled to find water and quench that thirst or you will die. The drive to socialize and procreate is equally as powerful otherwise we die of loneliness. These are things that clearly fall outside our will. I suppose the ultimate answer is death and the most apparent case of how free will is an illusion because once death is eminent no amount of will can change the outcome.
 
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Reverse_Dragon is offline Reverse_Dragon Post #57  March 5,2012, 7:26am
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Interesting note on this. I recently read of a study in the journal Neuropsychology, the results of which seemed to indicate that we do NOT have free will. The study was taking a look at the amount of elapsed time between engagement of the motor cortex and the activation of the cerebrum. In other words, how long after you decide to take a drink of water does it take for you to actually reach out and pick up the glass? The results were pretty surprising.

Time after time, the test seemed to show that the motor reflex occurred BEFORE the decision was made. In essence: Your hand moves towards the glass. 3 milliseconds later the brain becomes aware that the arm is moving. 9 milliseconds later the brain connects the movement of the hand, the direction of movement, and the presence of the feeling of thirst. A total of 12 milliseconds AFTER you begin reaching for your drink the brain sort of retroactively decides 'Boy... I'm thirsty! Better have a drink of water.'

This research is counter-intuitive and somewhat baffling. If you make the decision to move your arm AFTER you have already begun the movement, then what made you start moving in the first place? Are we driven entirely by our biology and all of our thoughts and decisions are simple overlays to make us feel in control?
 
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harnomygirl is offline harnomygirl Post #58  March 5,2012, 7:41am
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Great. We have even less control than I thought. Everything we do to feel otherwise is merely rationalization.

I've often thought that about other people, but I hoped that I was different.
 
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harnomygirl is offline harnomygirl Post #59  March 5,2012, 8:15am
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Reverse_Dragon wrote :
Your hand moves towards the glass. 3 milliseconds later the brain becomes aware that the arm is moving. 9 milliseconds later the brain connects the movement of the hand, the direction of movement, and the presence of the feeling of thirst. A total of 12 milliseconds AFTER you begin reaching for your drink the brain sort of retroactively decides 'Boy... I'm thirsty! Better have a drink of water.'

This research is counter-intuitive and somewhat baffling. If you make the decision to move your arm AFTER you have already begun the movement, then what made you start moving in the first place? Are we driven entirely by our biology and all of our thoughts and decisions are simple overlays to make us feel in control?
I think it's interesting that we reach for a glass of water. That action was taught to children as an appropriate response to thirst, and it sounds as though you're saying it becomes instinctive in adulthood.

If we really know that we can teach specific behaviors that will be performed thoughtlessly (without dissonance) when the correct stimulus is applied, we should spend more time on that sort of thing in early childhood and elementary schools if we wish to build the world we want. Eventually, no one will mind.

The researchers should place people near a tank of water and see if there is any thought at all given to lapping water, or if we'd all find a glass before drinking and then decide we're thirsty.
 
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