Christianity and abortion: where do you stand?


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Diana_P is offline Diana_P Post #1  August 14,2011, 3:27pm
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If you are of the flock the Commandment “Thy shall not kill” seems pretty unambiguous. In terms of Spirituality, however, two questions come to mind. First, how does God define a human being? Second, exactly how does God define murder?

Let’s look at the first question: How does God define a human being? Some Christians believe that there is no soul present in the body until the first breath. Others believe that the soul is created at conception. At what stage does living tissue become a human being?

The second question is even trickier: How does God define murder? If the soul isn’t present until the first breath or some other unknown point does abortion actually constitute breaking a Commandment? If preventing or obstructing child birth is against God’s Commandments, wouldn’t contraceptives as well as abstinence also be a sin. In Genesis 38:8 – 10 God put Onan to death for exercising abstinence in the presence of his brother’s wife.

Let’s discuss!
 
 
mitchell175 is online now mitchell175 Post #2  August 14,2011, 4:08pm
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Diana_P wrote :
If preventing or obstructing child birth is against God’s Commandments, wouldn’t contraceptives as well as abstinence also be a sin. In Genesis 38:8 – 10 God put Onan to death for exercising abstinence in the presence of his brother’s wife.
This is an interesting question (as usual)! My comments have nothing to do with what I personally believe regarding abortion or abstinence or contraception, and I have no idea who Onan is or what his "exercising abstinence in the presence of his brother's wife" means. Does that mean that because he opted not to act on his lustful feelings against his brother's wife, that he was effectively practicing abstinence? That doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but then I am not familiar with that story from the Bible.

I think that abstinence would not be a sin, because not having sex cannot be defined as preventing conception, because just the act of having sex does not guarantee conception. However, using contraceptives to prevent conception maybe could be considered a sin. At least, I can see how religious fanatics come to that conclusion when they protest the use of contraceptives.

It is interesting that some of these same people will advocate the use of "natural family planning" (sometimes also called "the rhythm method") as a non-contraceptive way to prevent pregnancy. Why is that acceptable, while chemical or physical contraceptives are not?

I am interested to see the rest of the responses to your questions.
 
 
Diana_P is offline Diana_P Post #3  August 14,2011, 5:39pm
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mitchell175 wrote :
Does that mean that because he opted not to act on his lustful feelings against his brother's wife, that he was effectively practicing abstinence?
Mitchell,

Thanks for your reply!

Genesis 38:9 …..he wasted his seed on the ground in order not to give offspring to his brother.

He did give into his nature; he just made sure she wouldn’t get pregnant. God didn’t like it and put him down.
 
 
j0hn8andy is offline j0hn8andy Post #4  August 14,2011, 6:22pm
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The Pill made its debut in the 60s...and it made all the difference in the world. Mine was the first generation that could assure itself...unwanted, unplanned pregnancies...were not left to chance.

I'm Christian...not as good as I should be, certainly...but I believe.

I made sure I never got pregnant.

That said...if I had...I would not have had an abortion. Even if I had not been married.

Certain practices...late term abortions, for instance...well, it's difficult for me to believe that if people really knew exactly how they were performed...

...the utter, depraved, barbarity...

...they would sleep well, knowing such things happen to innocent unborn babies.

That's where I stand.

I'm glad I'm not God...and don't have to judge it all.

j8a
 
 
Diana_P is offline Diana_P Post #5  August 14,2011, 7:21pm
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j0hn8andy wrote :
The Pill made its debut in the 60s...and it made all the difference in the world. Mine was the first generation that could assure itself...unwanted, unplanned pregnancies...were not left to chance.

I'm Christian...not as good as I should be, certainly...but I believe.

I made sure I never got pregnant.

That said...if I had...I would not have had an abortion. Even if I had not been married.

Certain practices...late term abortions, for instance...well, it's difficult for me to believe that if people really knew exactly how they were performed...

...the utter, depraved, barbarity...

...they would sleep well, knowing such things happen to innocent unborn babies.

That's where I stand.

I'm glad I'm not God...and don't have to judge it all.

j8a
Thanks!
 
 
Dropdeadredtx is online now Dropdeadredtx Post #6  August 14,2011, 7:51pm
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I am 100% pro-choice and a firm believer in the separation of church and state. I believe in a woman's rights to make choices regarding her body and her health.
That being said, I have a beautiful, talented, compassionate 21 year old daughter because my choice was to have a baby, even when my live-in partner asked me to have an abortion. I was 29 and he was 34, we weren't kids, but the 'timing was bad'.
When he said 'What are we going to do?' my reply was 'I don't know about you, but I am going to have a baby'.
He left.
I absolutely made the right choice, and what was for me, as an agnostic secular humanist, the only choice I could make. But it wasn't a 'spiritual' choice for me, it was an ethical and emotional and compassionate choice. It was the right choice - but I always come back to the fact that it was my choice.
 
 
lunabeach is offline lunabeach Post #7  August 14,2011, 7:55pm
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I'm not a Christian, but my moral code is certainly influenced by a Christian background. Actually, now that I think of it, my moral code is heavily influenced by some amazing people in my life who have identified themselves as Christians (but are of the spiritual, not religious variety).

Getting pregnant would turn my life upside down (not in a good way!!) and would deeply upset me. Since I like children, know I could handle it (I've already raised a couple, sort of), and am more financially stable than I ought to be...I don't think I could get an abortion. But I would grieve for the life I've worked for that would have to be postponed or abandoned; I would also grieve a little for my child. I tried to frame why, but it's too complicated to share here.

I will say I supported a close friend who chose to get an abortion; it was the responsible decision at that time and in her situation. I also plan to volunteer escorting women into clinics because they deserve to make a very difficult decision in peace and safety.
Last edited by lunabeach; August 14,2011 at 10:11pm.
 
 
Wonderwoman402 is offline Wonderwoman402 Post #8  August 14,2011, 8:15pm
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Sarah Palin makes being a "pro-life christian" part of her platform. Yet, in practice, she is clearly pro-choice. When she found out she was pregnant with an unplanned pregnancy and she was carrying a child with Downs Syndrome, she has confessed how she considered going off to get an abortion. She could go away to some far away state and have it done and no one would know. Yet in the end she obviously chose to have her son. The fact that she even considered abortion as an alternative makes her "pro choice." Yet she is quite hypocritical in proclaiming herself "pro-life."

I think there are a lot of Christians out there who proclaim themselves as "pro life" yet are secretly glad they have a choice. Abortion rates are not statistically significantly different across religious lines.
 
 
AZJoe is offline AZJoe Post #9  August 15,2011, 9:14am
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Wonderwoman402 wrote :
Sarah Palin makes being a "pro-life christian" part of her platform. Yet, in practice, she is clearly pro-choice. When she found out she was pregnant with an unplanned pregnancy and she was carrying a child with Downs Syndrome, she has confessed how she considered going off to get an abortion. She could go away to some far away state and have it done and no one would know. Yet in the end she obviously chose to have her son. The fact that she even considered abortion as an alternative makes her "pro choice." Yet she is quite hypocritical in proclaiming herself "pro-life."

I think there are a lot of Christians out there who proclaim themselves as "pro life" yet are secretly glad they have a choice. Abortion rates are not statistically significantly different across religious lines.
Your example for claiming Sarah Palin is pro-choice is specious reasoning and is perhaps wishful thinking on your part. This kind of subjective judgment would produce the same conviction and label for any person who ever had a passing transient thought (temptation) to murder (e.g perhaps his spouse for cheating) but after carefully thinking through the consequences before pulling the trigger (death, physiological trauma, loss of affection, alienation of friends, remorse, sadness, risk of eternal damnation, life imprisonment etc.) elected to not commit murder.

I think there are a lot of people who like to think they are Christian and call themselves that but don't have a clue that they are nothing of the sort.

Your statistic is uncited and actually goes against what facts we do have.
Last edited by AZJoe; August 15,2011 at 2:38pm. Reason: correct typo/spelling and generalize
 
 
AZJoe is offline AZJoe Post #10  August 15,2011, 9:16am
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I always suspect unreferenced statistics on abortion and even when referenced one should examine the source for conflict of interest.

The most often quoted source of statistics that anti-religious quote to claim that abortions among "religious lines" are not significantly different between "denominations" and non-religious is the Alan Guttmacher Institute report. But this data is flawed and poorly interpreted by most people who cite the one-liner sound bites. The findings of this particular study found that there is quite a large difference between Catholic and Protestant faiths for example - but did not take into account the fact that in Catholicism abortion is grounds for automatic excommunication (which means they are not really Catholic). The study also failed to address the obvious problem with people who "claimed" to be "such and such" a religion but never in fact bothered to even attend church or catechism/faith-training. Nor did the survey ask these women if they ever even originally actually subscribed to the essential beliefs of their faith communities and just "thought" of themselves as "Christian" etc. for its social benefits? It would not surprise me if at least 65% or more of individuals who called themselves "religious" in this report were even in possession of a formed moral consciences around any sort of "orthodox" religious belief sytstem. One other problem with the study is it did not weigh the demographics between education levels and race which vary radically by religious denomination and the data could reflect more of a sociological aspect centered around ethnic & educational background more so than it related at all to religious belief. This could in particular be an artifact of the high illegal immigration rate from South & Central America in the study period and its culture.

The other problem with the Guttmacher report is that it is HIGHLY biased as it is the research (quasi-marketing) group of Planned Parenthood -- the LARGEST abortion provider in the country making 100's of millions of dollars off aborting children for profit. Anything this group reports should be suspect as self-serving to their own lucrative business objectives.

The study does show that although only 6 percent of "non-believers" are between the ages 15-44, they account for a whopping 24 percent of all the abortions. If the researchers were fair and honest they would have highlighted this concluding finding (but didn't): women who have no religious affiliation are four times more likely than other women to have an abortion. This glaring oversight alone proves that Guttmacher is highly biased and is pushing a socio-economic and political agenda (many of us think its eugenics motivated philosophically).

Bottom Line: Independently check the findings of any research report, especially those that are produced by highly politicized organizations liked Planned Parenthood and their marketing and research arms that have a vested financial interest in the conclusions.
 
 
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