harnomygirl is offline harnomygirl Post #11  August 29,2011, 10:49am
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AZJoe wrote :
OK - I'm naturally inclined to believe your warning to us so we won't believe a single thing you say here. Or are you being clever to get us to believe that you are untrustworthy so we won't believe the truth?

My theory is you're confused. But I can't propagate that theory as truth since the scientific method does not let a theory be declared as an absolute truth unless its proven. Do you know of any proven theories in science that no longer have the term "theory" attached to them and are now stated as "objective truth"?
I took a look at some of the eHA profiles of people on this thread and I wondered if you've ever googled cause/effect and run across discussions like these?

Effect before Cause: Is it possible?

Cramer's Backward Causality Experiment

They are old posts.

I don't know how much some posters reason like the other people with similar majors, or how often they use the jargon of their own field, but it could explain the differences in the way people discuss things and why it's difficult sometimes to find a place of mutual understanding. I'm not talking about agreement, just understanding.

I think audiodad tries harder to understand the way you think and so even though conversation might get heated, he'll make more sense to the religious. He's trying harder and he has the background for it. I could be wrong.
 
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AudioDad is offline AudioDad Post #12  August 29,2011, 11:20am
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harnomygirl wrote :
I think audiodad tries harder to understand the way you think and so even though conversation might get heated, he'll make more sense to the religious. He's trying harder and he has the background for it. I could be wrong.
Some who frequent these forums will say you're wrong.

Much of it stems from the fact that I used to be a believer. I know that general mindset well and the rationalizations employed to maintain it. Of course, we can never fully know the mind of another. But it wasn't until I became an atheist that I fully understood how silly (and sometimes downright bizarre) the attacks against atheists are - particularly from those who have only ever been god-believers.

As regards the thread topic, the hardcore faithful typically define "truth" in the context of their faith - their ideology literally is The Truth(tm) to them. Remove that, and their world crumbles. They start with a pre-determined conclusion (God exists and the bible is true) then generally:

1. force whatever evidence they find to fit that conclusion
2. reject any evidence that contradicts that conclusion if they can't pound that square peg into their round holes
3. employ all manner of creative apologetica and/or circular logic to make any contrary evidence appear to not be contrary - i.e., the Bible is true because it says it is.
4. offer up any number of extra biblical documents (also written by humans) to support why their interpretation of the bible and God is legitimate.

You see it continually throughout these forums. It's so predictable it's almost like another law of nature.
 
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AZJoe is offline AZJoe Post #13  August 29,2011, 1:47pm
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Diana_P wrote :


 How can there be only one truth in a universe of infinite possibilities?
You're making assumptions that are likely not valid.

Theologically speaking:
All things are possible which God would permit. But we know that God does not permit all things therefor not "all" conceivable things ( much less the many more inconceivable things) are possible

Case in point:
God would not permit Himself to change His nature - e.g. He would not lie or do evil.

Philosophically speaking:
The universe does not contain an infinity of possibilities. If this were not so and there were an infinite number of possibilities then none of us might be here since the universe would always be in it's "infinity". Surely "by now" if all things were possible the universe would have and should have found the possibility that it could spontaneously self-annihilated itself if for no other reason than to be impossibly mean and cruel to spare itself from the burden of tolerating us irrational humans.
Last edited by AZJoe; August 29,2011 at 1:52pm.
 
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myusernamehere is online now myusernamehere Post #14  August 29,2011, 2:24pm
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Everyone has their own truth.
 
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shapeShifter79 is offline shapeShifter79 Post #15  August 29,2011, 2:47pm
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Spiritual Diane wrote :
How can there be only one truth in a universe of infinite possibilities?
Arizona Joe wrote :
All things are possible which God would permit. But we know that God does not permit all things therefor not "all" conceivable things ( much less the many more inconceivable things) are possible
Diane didn't say all things are possible, she said there were infinite possibilities. Your argument is a strawman, attacking something she didn't claim. Consider the set of all even integers. Although the set of even integers is infinite, it's not true that any number can be a member. There are important constraints imposed on the set. The numbers "3", "1/3", and "Pi" are not members of that set.
Last edited by shapeShifter79; August 29,2011 at 2:55pm.
 
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Diana_P is offline Diana_P Post #16  August 29,2011, 2:59pm
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AZJoe wrote :
You're making assumptions that are likely not valid.

Theologically speaking:
All things are possible which God would permit. But we know that God does not permit all things therefor not "all" conceivable things ( much less the many more inconceivable things) are possible

Case in point:
God would not permit Himself to change His nature - e.g. He would not lie or do evil.

Philosophically speaking:
The universe does not contain an infinity of possibilities. If this were not so and there were an infinite number of possibilities then none of us might be here since the universe would always be in it's "infinity". Surely "by now" if all things were possible the universe would have and should have found the possibility that it could spontaneously self-annihilated itself if for no other reason than to be impossibly mean and cruel to spare itself from the burden of tolerating us irrational humans.
Thanks for sharing your singular wit. Very nice!

Philosophically speaking infinite possibilities suggests infinite alternate realities. The reality that you and I are contained in has not and most likely will not spontaneously self-annihilate in our limited life time. It would be impossible for us to postulate about realities where such a thing has occurred.

Some have hypothesized that based on our future decisions we actually shift from one possible reality to another. I find that fascinating. According to the theory the out come of your life today based on the decisions you have already made may change into something else tomorrow with the addition of new interactions.

In other words you actually become someone else and take on a different person’s life or reality simply by making the decision to run that red light instead of stopping. Think how much a decision that small can change a person’s life. When you consider the relationship between energy, matter, space and time it doesn’t really seem so outlandish to me.

If you look at a single point in time then imagine every conceivable tangent. Now end with a new point and repeat. Space becomes congested with an intricate interconnected network where one mind could experience every possibility. I can’t explain it as good as the diagram I saw but it was an interesting idea.
 
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Reverse_Dragon is offline Reverse_Dragon Post #17  August 29,2011, 8:49pm
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Diana is talking about the 'Copenhagen Interpretation' of quantum mechanics. It does indeed propose an alternate reality not just for every choice, but for every conceivable interaction between anything, anywhere, ever.

While there has been no experimental or observational evidence to support the hypothesis, the math is quite elegant and it is certainly fascinating to speculate about.
AZjoe, I would refer you to earlier posts in which I attempted to define the actual meaning of the words hypothesis, theory, and law.
 
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