Diana_P is offline Diana_P Post #1  July 1,2011, 6:47pm
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Do you feel that there is a spiritual component to sex? Some Christians believe that marriage in the eyes of God occurs the first time a man and woman become intimate. There was no ceremony joining Adam with his bride Eve. They became Husband and Wife the very first time they had sex. Is that really all it takes in the eyes of God to create a Holy bond between two people? Was this how God truly meant for things to be?

Is there a spiritual exchange during intercourse or is romance and courtship simply a well meaning but unsuccessful attempt to sublimate our animal instincts? Does the act of sex have greater value than the biological consequences of relieving tensions and procreation?

What say you?
 
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Diana_P is offline Diana_P Post #2  July 1,2011, 7:03pm
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Okay, I’ll go first.

I think that you should never take something from someone if you don’t have something of equal or greater value to give in return. I don’t believe anyone in love can give of their body without also sharing their spirit. Therefore, having sex without love is taking something from someone without giving anything of equal value in return. I may not have explained this very well, but some people will read this and know exactly what I’m talking about. However, an explanation would be useless for the ones who don’t get it.
 
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AZJoe is offline AZJoe Post #3  July 4,2011, 10:49am
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Diana_P wrote :
Do you feel that there is a spiritual component to sex? Some Christians believe that marriage in the eyes of God occurs the first time a man and woman become intimate. There was no ceremony joining Adam with his bride Eve. They became Husband and Wife the very first time they had sex. Is that really all it takes in the eyes of God to create a Holy bond between two people? Was this how God truly meant for things to be?

Is there a spiritual exchange during intercourse or is romance and courtship simply a well meaning but unsuccessful attempt to sublimate our animal instincts? Does the act of sex have greater value than the biological consequences of relieving tensions and procreation?

What say you?
Of course there is a spiritual component. Marriage takes on its deepest and fullest meaning in the Christian theological insight where is was always taken as creative and unitive expression of love. There was also an explicit understanding that God would bless a proper marriage and participate in that relationship since He made them in His image as Male and Female. Thus in a certain sense marital intimacy taken in a state of selflessness, grace, purity and true love (not just eros but also filial and agape) is a human expression that emulates some of the inner relational workings of the Trinity (Father, Son and Holy Ghost) and beatitude. This is why it is considered a moral crime and mediocre to our nature to use one's partner for simple pleasure (willingly or begrudgingly) and to participate intimately only at a superficial or trivial sensual carnal level. Unfortunately, it would seem that the majority in the West have forgotten this and have entered into secular aspects of sexuality - "coupling" for the sake of transient pleasures as a platitude for "I love you" when its often really more a "thanks I needed that".

As to Adam - there was no account of a ceremony but that does not mean there was none. In fact marriage requires a mutual assent and a witness. In their case Adam took her as flesh of his flesh and bone of his bone as God was His witness. Clearly there was a witness else we would not have any of these accounts (Eve was there too clearly). We just don't have Eve's part mentioned explicitly but we can certainly be sure that she was not forced to marry Adam and assented to it also.

In apostolic Christian Marriages (Catholic/Orthodox) marriage is seen as sacred and sacramental - each other give one to the other freely and administer there own sacrament of self giving. The priest is only a witness and speaks on behalf of the Church community. It the the actual couple who give each other their irrevocable pledge of life fidelity. The Church also bestows its apostolic blessings & prayers and the assumption is that God joins and blesses them sacramentally also (when the marriage is licit - no deceptions like already being married or not of age etc. ). The actual conjugal embrace is the act by which the marriage is consummated and made canonically and legally binding and is NOT the marriage commitment itself. In that latter regard, it is in fact spiritually permissible for a married couple to elect to remain celebate even within marriage if by mutual assent.

The idea of marriage being an affait accompli by act of mere sexual intercourse is a crude idea advanced by some pagan cultures (and perhaps protective Italian Poppa's -- aka shotgun weddings) that has no basis in Judeo-Christian theology.

And finally yes - intimacy is more than just a release of tensions or a procreative act. Intimacy furthers the bond between a couple in a marriage relationship and advances the trust, sharing and life commitment that is in evidence in that commitment., Sex outside of marriage must always fall short since those who do not commit to marriage are not giving all they are and committing their lives to their partner and are at most saying "I love you a lot but not so much that I can commit my life to you." A life is the most anyone can give another - and there's no better way to put real meaning behind the too often used phrase "I love you" than my marriage.
 
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Diana_P is offline Diana_P Post #4  July 4,2011, 4:19pm
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AZJoe wrote :
"I love you a lot but not so much that I can commit my life to you." A life is the most anyone can give another - and there's no better way to put real meaning behind the too often used phrase "I love you" than my marriage.
Nicely said! Thanks for your very well thought out and eloquent reply.
 
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hermes01 is offline hermes01 Post #5  July 5,2011, 4:39am
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The witness to Adamn and Eve's wedding was Lilleth?
 
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AZJoe is offline AZJoe Post #6  July 5,2011, 5:45am
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hermes01 wrote :
The witness to Adamn and Eve's wedding was Lilleth?
No. At the genesis of the human race the sole witness was God and our first parents - Adam and Eve.

Lilleth is a little known and a not widely spoken of mythological demon of the night. Accounts are unreliable, obscure, dubious and not orthodox at all. There is limited mention of her only late in the history of the Jews during the period they were under Babylonian captivity and influence. Some Jews at this time abandoned their faith and embraced the false gods and pagan customs of their enemies. I suspect Lileth is a syncretism construct used by these fallen away Jews to cope with their original beliefs and the beliefs of the pagan societies they were forced to live in. There are legions of small groups of Jewish departures from Judaism over the centuries that splinter into obscure cults that blend pagan and Jewish customs and beliefs.

Lilleth does not really appear in the bible at all except perhaps in certain translations of Isaiah's prophecies that come much later in time than Genesis. These use a variant of her name to convey demonic activity - a melding of hairy creatures with demons.

I think it can be safely said that God would much rather He be the witness at the advent of the human race than a mere demon (fallen angel) which are all by title of "demon" condemned to eternal damnation. Would a Judge trust a felon he just convicted to the death-penalty to witness the marriage of his first son or notarize the marriage certificate? Would his son?
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Reverse_Dragon is offline Reverse_Dragon Post #7  August 11,2011, 10:04am
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From a secular standpoint, it is difficult to properly phrase a response to this question. But here goes...

While I don't believe in 'soul' or 'spirit' in the religious sense, I don't think a healthy person should be able to separate sex and love. They are two sides of the same coin. One is the physical expression of the other. Sex without love is simply mutual masturbation.

Without the intimacy, the sense of two persons so intermingled you cannot tell where you end and she begins, sex is about as romantic as a bowel movement.
 
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greenisthecolour is offline greenisthecolour Post #8  August 11,2011, 7:18pm
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AZJoe wrote :
No. At the genesis of the human race the sole witness was God and our first parents - Adam and Eve.

Lilleth is a little known and a not widely spoken of mythological demon of the night. Accounts are unreliable, obscure, dubious and not orthodox at all. There is limited mention of her only late in the history of the Jews during the period they were under Babylonian captivity and influence. Some Jews at this time abandoned their faith and embraced the false gods and pagan customs of their enemies. I suspect Lileth is a syncretism construct used by these fallen away Jews to cope with their original beliefs and the beliefs of the pagan societies they were forced to live in. There are legions of small groups of Jewish departures from Judaism over the centuries that splinter into obscure cults that blend pagan and Jewish customs and beliefs.

Lilleth does not really appear in the bible at all except perhaps in certain translations of Isaiah's prophecies that come much later in time than Genesis. These use a variant of her name to convey demonic activity - a melding of hairy creatures with demons.

I think it can be safely said that God would much rather He be the witness at the advent of the human race than a mere demon (fallen angel) which are all by title of "demon" condemned to eternal damnation. Would a Judge trust a felon he just convicted to the death-penalty to witness the marriage of his first son or notarize the marriage certificate? Would his son?

There are also many stories about Lilith that speak of her as Adam's first wife, before Eve, who "didn't really work out" ... (she escaped the garden of Eden, or was kicked out or tricked, I can't remember exactly). Regardless, to my knowledge she is not mentioned in the books of the Hebrew bible itself, but only in extra-canonical writings.

Personally, what I think is more important than who the witness may have been is whether Adam and Eve considered themselves to be making a lifelong commitment. There is no story in Genesis that recounts anything like a ceremony or officiating event; the word "marriage" does not even appear. Words that are commonly translated as 'husband' or 'wife' simply mean 'man' or 'woman' in many places in the Bible.

That being said, in the present time, we do have words that distinguish 'man' from 'husband' and 'woman' from 'wife,' so I don't really think a person can honestly say they are making a lifelong commitment without getting married (though I know many people who disagree). In my opinion, a marriage is much more than a piece of paper, and because of the lifelong commitment that comes with marriage, sex means something entirely different within the context of marriage than it could ever possibly mean outside of that context.
 
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