What is the genesis of original evil?


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hermes01 is offline hermes01 Post #21  June 21,2011, 3:50am
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Why are people so reluctant to accept that 'GOD' is the Source of ALL................good and evil?

To 'GOD' what ....IS....simply ...IS.....
To HIM there is no good OR evil.....

It is God's INTENTION...that is the cause of what
'IS'

When WE do NOT see good or evil as HE 'sees'....then there is no need for us to 'be'

Satan is our mind..........observe your mind...and you will see just how important Satan is..............
 
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Diana_P is offline Diana_P Post #22  June 28,2011, 7:33pm
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hermes01 wrote :
Why are people so reluctant to accept that 'GOD' is the Source of ALL................good and evil?

To 'GOD' what ....IS....simply ...IS.....
To HIM there is no good OR evil.....

It is God's INTENTION...that is the cause of what
'IS'

When WE do NOT see good or evil as HE 'sees'....then there is no need for us to 'be'

Satan is our mind..........observe your mind...and you will see just how important Satan is..............
This is a very intriguing thought. Would you mind expounding?

I was taught that pride was the original sin committed by Satan against God. How can an Angel decide that he is better or could be better than God? I have wondered how this transpired because all that existed was God and God’s goodness. Satan was right there with God in Heaven. “Belief” or “Faith” wasn’t necessary! There was no meaning being lost in translation yet somehow Satan faltered.

Satan was a created being! What would possess Satan to think that he could be the Creator or over God’s creation? That doesn’t make any sense. If Satan was able to convince a third of the Angels to follow him out of Heaven he must have had some intelligence in his brain assuming he has one. Where was the break down? Did he just get tired of worshiping God? If being inside God’s love is a great as we are told I don’t see how that is possible. This is all pretty confusing!

Now you might ask what difference does it make why or how original sin or evil came to be. Actually this is a very important topic because if perfection existed in a time when there was no sin or nothing in opposition to God’s will and SOMETHING happened to change that what is to say that SOMETHING may not occur again after God’s will has transpired and we are all in Heaven with Christ? How do we know that another Angel won’t go bad and succumb to the sin of pride? It happened once, it could happen again, right?

I’ve been told that our nature will be changed so that we can’t sin once we are in Heaven, but it doesn’t say anything about fixing the Angels and a broken Angel is what started all this mess!
 
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AZJoe is offline AZJoe Post #23  July 4,2011, 12:02pm
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ChristianBrother wrote :
Why does humanity keep insisting that they have "Free Will"?

And I do believe that the Book of Romans in the Bible Chapter 9 effectively deals with this entire issue. Especially verses 14 thru verse 23.
ChristianBrother wrote :
I don't want to quote the verses here since I am afraid that they would not be welcomed. But they basically say- God is soveriegn and we are not.

He gets to do what he'd like. And we really have little if any say in the matter.
I'd like to see your references - this is all false. Humans DO have free will and it is sacrosanct up the point in time we die. God permits the exercise of free will simply because without free will there is no capacity to elect to love and without assent there can be no authentic love - just robotic obedience. That said God can certainly elect to mitigate any actions of free will to limit the consequences of evil choices to his other created beings.

But the ultimate choice is to choose Him or to choose Satan.. Those are the two big choices.

"I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. Choose life, then, that you and your descendants may live, by loving the LORD, your God, heeding his voice, and holding fast to him." Deuteronomy 30:19-20
Not only is each individual free to choose, he is obliged to choose.

"No one experiencing temptation should say, 'I am being tempted by God'; for God is not subject to temptation to evil, and he himself tempts no one. Rather, each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire." James 1:13-15
It is obvious that it is not God who tempts us and therefore not God who "makes" our choices for us.


"Because I called and you refused, I extended my hand and no one took notice" Proverbs 1:24
Yes, God calls us but we can refuse. He invites us but does not compel us.

"Ever since the creation of the world, his invisible attributes of eternal power and divinity have been able to be understood and perceived in what he has made. As a result, they have no excuse; for although they knew God they did not accord him glory as God or give him thanks. Instead, they became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless minds were darkened." Romans 1:20-21
Paul here warns us that the glory of God is evident to all but not everyone chooses to acknowledge it. Notice that all do have the choice. particularly like the line in the above passage "they became vain in their reasoning".


Choose wisely.
 
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AZJoe is offline AZJoe Post #24  July 4,2011, 12:14pm
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Diana_P wrote :
The Bible says that the Angel Lucifer wanted to be like God or better than God. But, Lucifer was an intelligent being so he had to know that wasn't possible. Lucifer knew he was a created being and therefore could never be the Creator. So how did the sin of pride arise in one of God's perfect servants? If this thing called pride is evil and not a creation of God where did it come from? How did evil manifest when there was nothing but God and His goodness?
This is the nature of pride - the origin of all evil and the root of all sin. The angelic beings nature is much higher than natural man's. Angels are creatures of pure intellect and being outside of time do not need to "reason' and cognate - they just know truth instantly or are in possession of it as part of their nature. We humans are in time and must reason. This is why the angelic beings were given only an instant to decide for or against God in the instant of their creation. We know that 1/3 of them in spite of knowing the consequences fell. The penalty of Hell is so severe because they were endowed with such special grace and intelligence when created. They had no excuse. It was not so much that they didn't want to serve God rather the knew His plan to become incarnate in flesh (way below their nature) and did not want to serve God in the Flesh - since it made them have to serve an inferior nature - this is the essence of pride and why Christ often spoke of Himself as meek and lowly - the antidote for pride. All through human history God has favored the meek and the lowly and the downtrodden - Mary is a prime example - the handmaiden of the Lord and mother.

Humans because we must reason are given a lifetime to decide (70 years average lifespan here in USA). Many fall away and come back later in life but death is the time when decisions are final. Every heart beat is an opportunity to repent and to seek God's mercy.

Creation was damaged by Satan's fall and by Adam's sin. This is the nature of sin - it corrupts not only the spiritual soul but also material matter and order (sin, decay, death etc.). This is why we see both good and evil in nature now.
 
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AZJoe is offline AZJoe Post #25  July 4,2011, 12:25pm
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rix wrote :
If Satan is the Genesis of evil, and was himself seduced by evil at some point in the linear past, wouldn't it be logical to conclude that there is a greater source of evil above and outside of such a malevolent being in order for him to fall in the first place?
No. God does not will evil and did not create evil But in giving the authentic gift of freewill He did give a means for His created beings to love Him or reject Him. Given the consequences of rejection it would seem insane that any created being would reject Him and by that rejection instantiate evil in himself. But yet it was this desire to seek equality with God (to do it "my way" knowing it was not God's way) and self serve that lead to evil desires. Thus the created creatures showed that all are not worthy of being endowed with even greater powers beyond freewill if they are not responsible in their use of these gifts. Thus we are in a sort of proving ground to reveal who God will give greater power to in the 2nd Creation - those who will assent to trust God and use their gift of freewill to advance His kingdom. Those others will be stripped of all grace and power and sequestered safely away in hell where they can bring no further evil to God's kingdom having proven themselves untrustworthy and self serving.

Just because one is given a match to light a candle does not mean that it was intended to make the house into a bon fire. Evil manifests through people who violate their own conscience and inner laws that God gives each of us on our hearts.
 
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Diana_P is offline Diana_P Post #26  July 4,2011, 4:32pm
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AZJoe wrote :
It was not so much that they didn't want to serve God rather they knew His plan to become incarnate in flesh (way below their nature) and did not want to serve God in the Flesh - since it made them have to serve an inferior nature - this is the essence of pride.......
I vaguely remember that part about them not wanting to serve God in the flesh as a kid. I just can’t stump you with my questions can I? Give me a bit, I’ll come up with something else. Lol!

Thank you for always explaining everything so thoroughly and patiently.
 
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AZJoe is offline AZJoe Post #27  July 4,2011, 7:09pm
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eha_answer_man wrote :
1. Knowing something will happen is not the same as causing that something to happen.
Right on.

eha_answer_man wrote :
2. I am unconvinced, from the Bible or any other source, that God knows everything. I can give several examples from the Bible to support my position.

...
An omniscient being would have no need to "come down to see" for himself in order to know. This latter scripture alone, which is God's own words, clearly states God does not know everything.
Let me say that when reading scripture without benefit of knowledge of the apostolic teaching framework and/or without knowledge of period history and literary styles can lead to at all manner of fallacies. Even common sense would tell us that its also really paramount to be familiar with and discern the various literary styles used by the sacred writers as well as have some insights into their intentions - especially when one projects anachronistic theories that were never held by the Early Church Fathers (who all taught that God was omniscient).

Passages in Scripture you site which may seem to indicate God's ignorance must be interpreted here as anthropomorphisms. These are literary constructs conveyed to give limited human insights into matters that are well outside of our human anthromorphic ability to ever fully discern or relate to by natural human facilities. Interpreting such passages literally and taking them as evidence against God's omniscience here is moving completely out of step with the apostole's various cautions about interpreting scripture apart from the sacred teaching traditions they handed down to us. This can lead to falsehoods and all manner of strange new ideas just as they warned (and condemned and cursed - 1 Gal 1.9).
The case for sacred teaching tradition
2 Thessalonians 2:15 So then, brothers, stand firm, and cling to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by our letter.

The scriptural case for Omniscience:
John 21:17 The third time he said to him, "Simon son of John, do you love me?" Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, "Do you love me?" He said, "Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you." Jesus said, "Feed my sheep."

Matt. 6:8 says:
"Your Father knows what you need before you ask him."

1 Sam. 16:7; Acts 1:24; 15:8; Rom. 8:27; 1 Cor. 3:20
God knows a man's heart (cf. 1 Ki. 8:39; 2 Ch. 6:30).
1 Ch. 28:9 God searches the heart and understands all the intent of the thoughts (cf. 2 Ch. 16:9; Heb. 4:12). Matt. 6:4, 18 God sees the things done in secret. Heb. 4:13
There is no creature hidden from God's sight. Matt. 6:32
God knows all our needs. Matt. 10:29 Nothing happens apart from God's will (cf. Ja. 4:13-16).
Acts 2:23 Jesus was delivered to the Jews to be crucified by the determined counsel and foreknowledge of God.Matt. 24:36 No one but God knows the day and hour of judgment
1 John 3:20 For if our heart reprehend us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things
Here is a good theological exposition and reference on the attributes of God that the church has always taught from the very beginning: New Advent: The Divine Attributes - Divine Knowledge
 
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rix is offline rix Post #28  July 7,2011, 5:06pm
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AZJoe wrote :
No. God does not will evil and did not create evil But in giving the authentic gift of freewill He did give a means for His created beings to love Him or reject Him. Given the consequences of rejection it would seem insane that any created being would reject Him and by that rejection instantiate evil in himself. But yet it was this desire to seek equality with God (to do it "my way" knowing it was not God's way) and self serve that lead to evil desires. Thus the created creatures showed that all are not worthy of being endowed with even greater powers beyond freewill if they are not responsible in their use of these gifts. Thus we are in a sort of proving ground to reveal who God will give greater power to in the 2nd Creation - those who will assent to trust God and use their gift of freewill to advance His kingdom. Those others will be stripped of all grace and power and sequestered safely away in hell where they can bring no further evil to God's kingdom having proven themselves untrustworthy and self serving.

Just because one is given a match to light a candle does not mean that it was intended to make the house into a bon fire. Evil manifests through people who violate their own conscience and inner laws that God gives each of us on our hearts.
But from where does the impulse first come? According to Christian belief and doctrine, we, as human beings, are born with a sin nature, and therefore already have an inclination toward evil. But what about a "pure being" who has no such inclination? The question may beg the issue of infinite regress, however the impulse had to initially come from somewhere.
 
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