Diana_P is offline Diana_P Post #1  May 20,2011, 2:58pm
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Do you believe that good can come from evil? Do you think that even the most awful of sins are a part of God’s plan? If not then how do you explain that mankind is saved by the most heinous of crimes ever: the murder of Jesus Christ, the only Son of God.
 
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acelticsteve is offline acelticsteve Post #2  May 20,2011, 7:44pm

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I believe that good can come from evial, but that does not mean we should do evial to get good.
I don't think that sin was in Gods plan but He had a plan ready when it happened.

The death of christ was hurendous but Jesus himself said that no one took his life that He laved it down him self.
 
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Diana_P is offline Diana_P Post #3  May 21,2011, 5:28am
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acelticsteve wrote :
I believe that good can come from evial, but that does not mean we should do evial to get good.
I don't think that sin was in Gods plan but He had a plan ready when it happened.

The death of christ was hurendous but Jesus himself said that no one took his life that He laved it down him self.
Are there not any circumstances where it is okay to do evil to get good. What about the case of harming one person to protect another?
 
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llw11 is offline llw11 Post #4  May 21,2011, 9:52am
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isn't everything that happens part of "God's plan"? if something happens that's not part of God's plan then that God isn't truly all powerful and all knowing.
 
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dbz77 is offline dbz77 Post #5  May 21,2011, 10:25am
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llw11 wrote :
isn't everything that happens part of "God's plan"? if something happens that's not part of God's plan then that God isn't truly all powerful and all knowing.
That depends if God plans everything.
 
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gregs4fun is offline gregs4fun Post #6  May 21,2011, 1:17pm
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It better be, because I sure have been doing my part!! And enjoying it!!
 
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hermes01 is offline hermes01 Post #7  May 22,2011, 10:41pm
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all depends on what you mean by the word....'SIN'
 
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AZJoe is offline AZJoe Post #8  May 23,2011, 4:57am
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Diana_P wrote :
Do you believe that good can come from evil? Do you think that even the most awful of sins are a part of God’s plan? If not then how do you explain that mankind is saved by the most heinous of crimes ever: the murder of Jesus Christ, the only Son of God.
Absolutely - good can come from Evil. This was exactly what God did with Resurrecting Himself after the greatest evil ever committed by man at the crucifixion. God is absolutely sovereign over all of Creation (seen and unseen) and His creatures. Therefor He has control over all things. He bestowed the eternal gift of "freewill' to man and holds it sacrosanct so that we may freely use it to choose to love Him. Thus an authentic freewill means we can choose to do evil and hate God. Love can not be an authentic love without free assent - why He permits sin (and the consequences of evil - suffering) to occur at all. But where sin abounds grace abounds all the more ( Romans 5:20). Thus God can use the mechanisms of human suffering to unleash and direct plentiful grace to even the most pathetic sinner if that sinner chooses to repent and avail himself of that grace and overcome his sins and love God. This is how sin, even though God detests it serves God - by bringing everyone who does sin into great calamity and to their knees beyond their own facilities to remedy. Such suffering souls if they do not despair and do not doubt God's capacity for mercy (as did Judas who though his sin too great for God's mercy and hung himself) are completely restored by God when they turn their lives over to Him and trust Him and develop a relationship with Him through His Divine-Human Son Jesus.

Diana_P wrote :
Are there not any circumstances where it is okay to do evil to get good. What about the case of harming one person to protect another?
No. Never. God will never put us in a circumstance where He asks us to do evil to demonstrate our love for Him. He can not do evil and to desire a soul to do evil would be against His nature.

One may not unlawfully harm another person to protect another. That said, we are all entitled to protect the life we and others are given. If someone attempts to kill you or another person unlawfully (innocent of any wrong doing) then one is within their natural right and is in fact obligated to intervene. Except for times of war the use of deadly force is rarely needed to stop such evil though. In the conduct of a "Just War" it is lawful to kill enemies who are opposed to all that is good. An example of a Just War - fighting the Nazis who wanted to eradicate or subjugate all "inferior" races was a just war.
Last edited by AZJoe; May 23,2011 at 5:00am.
 
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AZJoe is offline AZJoe Post #9  May 23,2011, 5:25am
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Back to the main question - Is Sin a part of God's plan?

God's Divine Providence is His Plan that brings all things to their divine natural objective end. God in His Omniscience is outside of time and has foreseen all free elections and choices of all His creatures. We can think of this as a tapestry - where each of us is a thread in that tapestry. We all are given many choices in life to do good and to reject evil (put to the test) to cooperatively anneal our character, call on God's grace and reveal who we each choose to be - for God or against. In this sense then God has planned for His creatures who choose wrongly and sin and have given each of them sufficient grace to overcome their sins and to come to Him. He knows which will respond to the invitation of grace and which will not but He creates NONE for evil or damnation but for a divine purpose. We literally choose to be for or against God of our own free will. Those that choose to sin and die unrepentant elect to go to their own place (hell) and do not enter into the abode that God had desired for them ("In my father's house are many rooms" John 14:2) . Yet, even those who sin are part of that divine tapestry and must serve Him - they are just "cut off" and end abruptly at some point and their intended contribution to Creation is forever lost. Whereas those electing (the elect) to love God continue to love and serve God for all eternity and are given much glory in the new Creation to follow this currently passing one.

God's Plan is the optimum plan that permits freewill while saving all souls who will choose to love Him. That means we must suffer the consequences of our sins - what love is all about (putting up with the faults of others & trying to teach each other how sins have consequences for all). It is an awesome God and a benevolent God that permits us to elect our own eternal destiny by the instrument of free choice rather than just fating us to heaven or hell (as Calvin wrongly theorized). He cooperatively works with each soul to elevate it to his highest and best purpose to be all He intended us to be. Those that cooperate with grace attain it and those who reject God do not and some other soul must perform that person's intended purpose.
Last edited by AZJoe; May 23,2011 at 5:35am.
 
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acelticsteve is offline acelticsteve Post #10  May 23,2011, 10:14pm

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When you give people free will you may not like what you get.
 
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