Are we ready for the answers?


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Diana_P is offline Diana_P Post #1  May 20,2011, 2:02pm
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A friend of mine said that she couldn’t believe in God because she doesn’t believe in mankind. I asked her to explain and she said, “If you know you can’t trust the messenger how on earth can you trust the message.”

She asked how God can expect any of us to have faith under these conditions.

I told her that mankind is asking you to have faith, but God is asking you to have patience. In time all will be revealed.

None of us can see anything beyond the reality that we are presented with. That doesn’t mean that there aren’t other options - - it just means that we can’t see them right now. It is like trying to see around a corner. It just isn’t possible without help. It takes the imagination of an Abraham Lincoln or an Einstein to reach for things (explanations or solutions) that don’t exist yet. It is not that we are ill-equipped it is that we are ill-prepared. We aren’t ready for the answers. When we are we’ll start asking the right questions.

Yea? Nay?

What say you?
Last edited by Diana_P; May 21,2011 at 5:39am. Reason: rsp
 
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Diana_P is offline Diana_P Post #2  May 21,2011, 3:01pm
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No brave souls have stepped forward?

Okay, I’ll go first.

So what happens if I’m wrong? What happens if all the things I believe turn out to be hogwash? If you are open minded then there are an infinite number of scenarios, but most people only consider these three. One, there is no God. You die, you cease to exist, end of story. Two, there is a God. You die face judgment or whatever your faith or religion has set forth as your fate. Three, you die and discover that both assumptions are wrong. You exist as disembodied consciousness (very frightening). Maybe you reincarnate. Maybe you regress back into your own mind. A lot of maybe’s right?

I can barely comprehend the thought of continuing to think, experience emotion and exist without a body because of all of the things it implies about the origin of matter, time and space. Even so, if I am wrong and I am not greeted by the reality I am expecting when my heart stops I don’t think I’ll be frightened or shocked assuming I still possess cognitive abilities. I think it would only be a shock to those who never considered alternatives. On the other hand, if I simply cease to exist once my brain functions shut down then I’ll never know I was wrong!

Are you ready for the answers no matter what they might be? Have you given any thought to the possibility that what you believe may be wrong? Yea? Nay?
 
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llw11 is offline llw11 Post #3  May 21,2011, 4:54pm
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why is consciousness without a body scary?? if and when that day comes you'll likely either not realize it or the fact that you have no body will be irrelevant. i'd say that whatever is "human" about you will be left here (emotions, thoughts, flaws, morality, etc.).

i say i'll be ready for whatever. if God truly has a love for us bigger than we can understand then i'd imagine it can't be anything bad (despite what the abrahamic religions might be telling you, ).
 
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Diana_P is offline Diana_P Post #4  May 21,2011, 8:11pm
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llw11 wrote :
why is consciousness without a body scary?? if and when that day comes you'll likely either not realize it or the fact that you have no body will be irrelevant. i'd say that whatever is "human" about you will be left here (emotions, thoughts, flaws, morality, etc.).

i say i'll be ready for whatever. if God truly has a love for us bigger than we can understand then i'd imagine it can't be anything bad (despite what the abrahamic religions might be telling you, ).
I was almost afraid to make the original post because I wasn’t sure what kind of responses I’d get, but I am pleased yours was so open minded.

There are a lot of Christians that agree with you in your assertion that if there is a God He must be all Good and not just good to those who believe or follow religious doctrine. If God is truly divine then to me that means that He is above pettiness, anger, revenge, and the whole slew of negative emotions humans fall victim to. Attributing “human” (negative) qualities to God makes him easier to understand, but makes him less divine in my mind anyway. I am personally conflicted with this because there are definitely things in the Bible that weren’t fair or just even by the standards of most reasonable individuals. I get that if you are the Creator you get to say what is just; we can’t measure God’s compassion by our standards.

I guess the thought of existing as disembodied consciousness is scary because it opens up a plethora of questions I’m not sure I’m ready to explore yet. For example, if the mind can exist without the body does that mean that we existed before we were born? There is a passage in the Bible that says something about how God knew us before we were born. Wouldn’t that be wonderful if that was true? I love the idea of kicking it in Heaven with God before coming down to earth.

Most Christians contend that is not what the passage means because it conflicts with the idea that we are all cursed and must seek salvation - - even before we know what sin is! This is one time they agree with science and say we only came into existence when the sperm met the egg and at that exact instant we are cursed. So anyway that is just one reason that idea is scary………scary and fascinating at the same time.

It also gets into metaphysics which a lot of people think is a pseudo science or the devils science. This is going to sound really out there, but in a way science does support the existence of the human soul. The third law of thermodynamics says that matter and energy can not be destroyed it only changes form. Can it be that God Himself can not destroy a soul once He has created it and that is why we either receive eternal reward or eternal damnation? Seems like it would just be easier to permanently nullify, obliterate, or delete the fallen as opposed to leaving them around as a permanent reminder of failure for all eternity.

Thanks for your post and I look forward to your reply.
 
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llw11 is offline llw11 Post #5  May 22,2011, 7:44am
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Diana_P wrote :
I get that if you are the Creator you get to say what is just
a lot of christian "apologists" will say things like this but i disagree. just because you're God does NOT mean you get to create someone, knowing its flaws full well ahead of time, doing it anyway and destroying it for having those very flaws. if you want perfection, then create perfection since you can do anything you want...and just because you can do anything you want, doesn't mean you have to be cruel. sorry, but to me, the god of the bible just seems like the creation of bronze age intellect. i have to be honest in saying that i'd be very sad if that was the truth, .

Diana_P wrote :
I guess the thought of existing as disembodied consciousness is scary because it opens up a plethora of questions I’m not sure I’m ready to explore yet. For example, if the mind can exist without the body does that mean that we existed before we were born? There is a passage in the Bible that says something about how God knew us before we were born. Wouldn’t that be wonderful if that was true? I love the idea of kicking it in Heaven with God before coming down to earth.
i absolutely believe that we existed in some form prior to our life on earth, and just as we have no memory of this, we will also not have memory (or at least be indifferent) of our time here once the next phase begins. again, this is my opinion or feeling.
 
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Diana_P is offline Diana_P Post #6  May 22,2011, 4:21pm
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llw11 wrote :
i absolutely believe that we existed in some form prior to our life on earth, and just as we have no memory of this, we will also not have memory (or at least be indifferent) of our time here once the next phase begins. again, this is my opinion or feeling.
That has always been one of the many plugs against ideas like reincarnation. If we existed in human form prior to this why don't we have memory of it.

Does the notion of reincarnation conflicth with Christian doctrine? Some say it does some say it doesn't. I'm not sure how I feel about it but I do find it interesting.
 
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GentleDoc is offline GentleDoc Post #7  May 22,2011, 6:30pm
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llw11 wrote :
a lot of christian "apologists" will say things like this but i disagree. just because you're God does NOT mean you get to create someone, knowing its flaws full well ahead of time, doing it anyway and destroying it for having those very flaws. if you want perfection, then create perfection since you can do anything you want...and just because you can do anything you want, doesn't mean you have to be cruel. sorry, but to me, the god of the bible just seems like the creation of bronze age intellect. i have to be honest in saying that i'd be very sad if that was the truth, .


i absolutely believe that we existed in some form prior to our life on earth, and just as we have no memory of this, we will also not have memory (or at least be indifferent) of our time here once the next phase begins. again, this is my opinion or feeling.
We DO have memory of our past(s). It's just that recall is the problem.

I used to be agnostic about past lives, until I ran into a few of them. At that point, it's impossible not to believe. Further, we bring aspects of those experiences with us, which accounts for "irrational" fears about things.

Knowing that the "individual" is different from and survives the body is not scary, but comforting, because death is only what happens to the current body, not the Being.
 
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Diana_P is offline Diana_P Post #8  May 22,2011, 6:46pm
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GentleDoc wrote :
We DO have memory of our past(s). It's just that recall is the problem.
That makes sense. I could see how carrying around unwanted memories of past incarnations would be confusing. Is it selective or do we lose everything. Like if you were really good at playing the piano is there any way you could keep that?

Also, my knowledge of scripture is very limited. Is there anything in the Bible for or against reincarnation? I know Christ came back from the dead but I mean just regular people? Yea? Nay?
 
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j0hn8andy is offline j0hn8andy Post #9  May 22,2011, 7:41pm
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Diana_P wrote :
Also, my knowledge of scripture is very limited. Is there anything in the Bible for or against reincarnation? I know Christ came back from the dead but I mean just regular people? Yea? Nay?
Jesus said John the Baptist was Elijah. It's a lengthy passage, and mine is the King James Version, so the names are different...but in Matthew 11 Jesus was speaking of John.

And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.
Matthew 11:14

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AZJoe is offline AZJoe Post #10  May 22,2011, 7:49pm
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Diana_P wrote :
A friend of mine said that she couldn’t believe in God because she doesn’t believe in mankind. I asked her to explain and she said, “If you know you can’t trust the messenger how on earth can you trust the message.”

She asked how God can expect any of us to have faith under these conditions.

I told her that mankind is asking you to have faith, but God is asking you to have patience. In time all will be revealed.
Your friend is creating one big tautology. If she is asserting that mankind is completely defective and irrational (what a lot of the reformer theologists based faith communities refer to as "total depravity") then she must also ask herself why she trusts her own reasoning to ask rational questions ? Of course the same question could be asked of the downstream reformer faith communities why they felt they were exempted from their own defects in reasoning when the came up with the "reformed" theology in he first place.

Also, IMHO, "Mankind" at large is NOT asking anyone to have faith in God. Rather it is asking each other to have faith in the consensus of large numbers of their fellows and to blindly follow that consensus for better or worse - but more often than not much like lemmings over the edge of the cliff. God is really asking you to have faith in His Providence. He does so by leaving hints all over the cosmos, in nature and in the smallest discernible particles of matter - ORDER. He allows us to discern him by reason as well as by faith. In fact it is said among many of the earliest saints that faith and reason must be paired (or you get into conditions of irrational fanaticism. Likewise reason must be illumined by faith or else it can't go to the places beyond our current comprehension; It is pure reason devoid of faith and the disciplines of God's moral law (written in each person's "heart") that leads to grave moral mistakes and large unintended consequences (suffering and sorrows) for humanity.



Diana_P wrote :
None of us can see anything beyond the reality that we are presented with. That doesn’t mean that there aren’t other options - - it just means that we can’t see them right now. It is like trying to see around a corner. It just isn’t possible without help. It takes the imagination of an Abraham Lincoln or an Einstein to reach for things (explanations or solutions) that don’t exist yet. It is not that we are ill-equipped it is that we are ill-prepared. We aren’t ready for the answers. When we are we’ll start asking the right questions.

Yea? Nay?

What say you?
I have some problems with the way you have said this. God can not deceive - He is authentic and it is not His nature to be present false realities. It is man's defects (damaged nature and real sin) that pervert and distort reality. We have damaged natures as a consequence of the fall (why God is elevating us - "Oh happy fault of Adam who won us so great a Redeemer!") . But on the whole we are "good" and created for good. We are not totally depraved and unable to see the truth. Faith brings forward deeper dimensions and depth of the same one truth though (that must always be consistent and non-contradictory at all layers to be from God).
.
The other things you say about not being ready are true - it is a matter of Divine Providence as to when man is given more insight into the same original deposit of faith entrusted to His Church. Christ said so Himself: John 16:12-13 "I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth."

Some things will only be told after the 2nd Coming when all the good and evil has "played out" and Jesus makes His final judgement on all things.

Thanks for sharing your perspective.
 
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