hermes01 is offline hermes01 Post #1  March 3,2011, 2:06am
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Is God's Will always 'done' on earth (time process) as it is in
Heaven (the Eternal)?

Is His Will.... His 'choice'?

IF His Will IS always done ......do WE have a choice (free will)?

Is everything that happens, has happened, and will happen... of His choosing?
 
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WYskywatcher is offline WYskywatcher Post #2  March 4,2011, 5:47pm
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Great questions.

I've come to the conclusion that His ways are too complex for me to figure out. I believe in His Sovereignty and understand it to mean that nothing happens that He does not allow to happen.

With that said, there have been times in my life when I have been given choices to make, and I have chosen poorly. What I've come to understand is that I am weak and fragile like a jar of clay. My heart, like the Israelites, is prone to stray and wonder, to forsake my first Love.

Thankfully, He is stronger and more faithful than my greatest weakness!

I don't believe time is linear as our human minds comprehend it. I often imagine just what it may be like to discover that time has always been curved or multi-dimensional. (I could never put into words here my thoughts on that, and make any sense, so I'll stop there. )

He's demonstrated His faithfulness, goodness and mercy over and over again to me! I know some would say that I have had a "choice," but ultimately, I believe without Him I would be nothing. I think what Moses said to the Israelites in Deuteronomy applies to me too:

Deut. 8:16-17
"...Who fed you in the wilderness with manna, which your fathers did not know, that He might humble you and test you, to do you good in the end.
And beware lest you say in your [mind and] heart, My power and the might of my hand have gotten me this wealth."

I can take out the word "wealth" and replace it with anything...this peace, this compassion, this job, this degree, this son, this position, this joy, this patience, this kindness, this faithfulness, this endurance, this _____...

He gets credit for it all. Quite frankly, I deserve nothing more than death. He is so good!!
 
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PreachersSon is online now PreachersSon Post #3  March 4,2011, 7:11pm
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WYskywatcher wrote :
Great questions.

I've come to the conclusion that His ways are too complex for me to figure out. I believe in His Sovereignty and understand it to mean that nothing happens that He does not allow to happen.

With that said, there have been times in my life when I have been given choices to make, and I have chosen poorly. What I've come to understand is that I am weak and fragile like a jar of clay. My heart, like the Israelites, is prone to stray and wonder, to forsake my first Love.

Thankfully, He is stronger and more faithful than my greatest weakness!

I don't believe time is linear as our human minds comprehend it. I often imagine just what it may be like to discover that time has always been curved or multi-dimensional. (I could never put into words here my thoughts on that, and make any sense, so I'll stop there. )

He's demonstrated His faithfulness, goodness and mercy over and over again to me! I know some would say that I have had a "choice," but ultimately, I believe without Him I would be nothing. I think what Moses said to the Israelites in Deuteronomy applies to me too:

Deut. 8:16-17
"...Who fed you in the wilderness with manna, which your fathers did not know, that He might humble you and test you, to do you good in the end.
And beware lest you say in your [mind and] heart, My power and the might of my hand have gotten me this wealth."

I can take out the word "wealth" and replace it with anything...this peace, this compassion, this job, this degree, this son, this position, this joy, this patience, this kindness, this faithfulness, this endurance, this _____...

He gets credit for it all. Quite frankly, I deserve nothing more than death. He is so good!!
I like this. Here's my take. God is outside of time (He's eternal), so, from Heaven's perspective, everything that HAS happened, IS happening, or WILL happen, has already happened. God "knows the end from the beginning." As someone has said, "Has it ever occured to you that nothing has ever occured to God?" I agree with you that nothing happens that God does not allow, and if He allows it, then He allows it for some greater purpose, which He may or may not ever explain to us.

That said, we are still free to make our own choices, and are fully responsible for them, without any coercion or manipulation of our wills by God. It's not that He couldn't force us to make the right choices; It's just that He doesn't. And He has designed the universe in such a way that good decisions lead to good consequences, and bad ones lead to bad consequences, even if this isn't immediately apparent.

Of course, without the involvement of God, we as humans would never make any good choices, at least not in anything that mattered.

So, it boils down to this: Any good that decisions I have made are by the grace of God--the mistakes are all my own.
 
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hermes01 is offline hermes01 Post #4  March 5,2011, 3:21am
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Could it be possible that MAN cannot contemplate BLAMING GOD???
 
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PreachersSon is online now PreachersSon Post #5  March 5,2011, 8:39am
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hermes01 wrote :
Could it be possible that MAN cannot contemplate BLAMING GOD???
Nice try, but people blame God all the time. It's often the first, last, and only thing we do.
 
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hermes01 is offline hermes01 Post #6  March 5,2011, 12:32pm
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Atheists can blame a God .........they dont believe in.....BUT do 'religious' people blame God ?.or do they use words like HE ALLOWS things to happen...when perhaps HE chooses?

Who can accept a cruel, heartless God.....?

Can He be seen as such?

Is it all OUR fault?
 
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PreachersSon is online now PreachersSon Post #7  March 5,2011, 4:17pm
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hermes01 wrote :
Atheists can blame a God .........they dont believe in.....BUT do 'religious' people blame God ?.or do they use words like HE ALLOWS things to happen...when perhaps HE chooses?

Who can accept a cruel, heartless God.....?

Can He be seen as such?

Is it all OUR fault?
Well...God certainly CHOOSES what He ALLOWS. And yes, "religious" people do blame God for lots of things. I've hung out with them all my life, so I guess I ought to know.

Are you really that interested in this word game, or are you trying to make a broader point? If you're trying to argue that "Bad things happen, therefore 'God is NOT good'" or "Bad things happen, therefore, God does not exist", then just say so. Because what you are really arguing then is the supposed philosophical "Problem of Evil", and that is a discussion worth having.

If you're trying to make some other point, then please just state it. Otherwise, this "Socratic method" of yours (Asking question after question after question, without any sense of what you are driving at) is just going to annoy people.

The questions you've asked have been answered. Apparently, you didn't like the answers, so you've just asked the questions again a different way. This is not the road to a productive discussion.
Last edited by PreachersSon; March 5,2011 at 4:20pm.
 
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hermes01 is offline hermes01 Post #8  March 6,2011, 12:49am
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Its interesting how we human beings 'get annoyed'...

'He chooses what He allows'...Yes, that is a point of view. The views that people hold can be very interesting as well. I feel that perhaps the way a human being 'sees' 'GOD'...shows something about the human being. 'Truth' when it comes to 'God' is subjective. How can we discover 'objective' truth? (if there is such a thing).

It could be that our choices are only within God's choice. It could be that there are two ways of seeing 'TRUTH'. From the human point of view, in the time process and therefore VERY limited and from 'God's' point of View. The Eternal. Which is more 'truthful'? If this Power is Eternal then It sees the totallity of all galaxies and ALL of time in the ONE Eternal Moment. All OUR so called choices are known in the ONE Moment.

So, are our choices an illusion? Is HIS Will always done?

Is it possible that we have choices......BUT HE does NOT?
 
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AudioDad is offline AudioDad Post #9  March 6,2011, 1:49pm
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hermes01 wrote :
Atheists can blame a God .........they dont believe in.....
Why would we blame something we don't believe in? We do often ask, "why do Christians give their god all the credit, but never the blame"? If everything comes from God, than the tornado that wiped out Greenburg Kansas came from God. So did the 2004 tsunami that killed over 200 thousand people (the day after his Son's alleged birth in fact). Perhaps all the Muslim's and other non-believers in that part of the world had somehow angered God and he wanted to show them his displeasure. Or the recent earthquake in New Zealand that destroyed a historic church - not to mention killing over a hundred people at last count. I mean, it wouldn't be the first time the Almighty smote the population because they ticked him off.

wrote :
Is it all OUR fault?
Of course not, not all of it. True, humanity is its own worst enemy. But apparently God deserves much of the .....credit. Read Isaiah 45:7.
 
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Wonderwoman402 is offline Wonderwoman402 Post #10  March 6,2011, 2:23pm
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"God helps those who help themselves."
 
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