Diana_P is offline Diana_P Post #51  May 21,2011, 2:28pm
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ANDR3W wrote :


Am i the only one who sees a problem with using the bible as evidence to prove that the bible is true? How is it that you do not see the circularity of this line of reasoning? What is so special about Christian faith and the Christian bible in comparison to all of the other faiths and holy books in the world?
Obviously I can’t speak for all Christians, but for me it is a feeling. I admit I may be getting what this feeling is telling me wrong, but I know there is more to me than just atoms.

If you put a mirror in front of a dog or a cat it can’t discern that image is a reflection. Dolphins, some monkeys, apes, and humans can. I don’t want to start an argument about whether or not those creatures have souls. My point is that science can not prove the soul doesn’t exist any more than it can prove God doesn’t exist.

If human beings don’t have a soul and their thoughts and actions are purely due to sensory input, instinct, and processed memories, I think we would all be a lot more like the worker bee or drone in an ant colony. We would be driven purely by duty and survival and our “egos” wouldn’t exist. Although other animals exhibit self awareness humans are the only ones who can separate themselves from what they are experiencing. “Choice” is the distance between action and response. I believe that abstract, that distance, that instant of self reflection, is the soul.

I did like your illustration and look forward to your reply.
 
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Wonderwoman402 is offline Wonderwoman402 Post #52  May 22,2011, 9:15pm
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Diana_P wrote :
I'm just curious. What do you think it would take to make someone devout into a non-believer?
When I was a kid and a teen, you could probably say I was "devout." I was baptized a Lutheran. I attended Sunday School every week and went to Vacation Bible School. I sang in the youth choir. I went to confirmation classes and was confirmed into the church. I regularly went to the church youth group.

One evening I got into a conversation with our youth pastor. Most of the other kids in my neighborhood, my friends, were Jewish. I asked him about heaven and whether my Jewish friends would go there. He said no, because they did not accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior. Now, I knew my friends and I knew that I was no better than them. We were all pretty much the same. Main difference was that we were born into families with different religious traditions, and from my perspective that just meant we celebrated different holidays.

I did not understand how God could decide that I was good enough to go to heaven, but they were not. Wasn't he an all-loving God? Why wouldn't all good people go to heaven? How could he be so fickle on something like that? That was when I started to lose faith.

I looked around at all the religions in the world. So many of them believe that theirs is the ONLY way to salvation. They obviously can't all be right! Even among christian denominations, there is so much prejudice and political fighting. One believes you have to accept Jesus as an adult, another believes babies being baptized are saved no matter what. One believes in a set of "sacraments" and that it's a sin if you don't attend church every week (I never saw that in the bible....) Some serve communion at every gathering, some weekly, some monthly. Some let all partake in communion, others bar all but members of their own sect. Which one is right? Some let grape juice and/or white wine substitute for the red wine as it's all symbolic; others believe that the wine and wafers actually transform into Jesus' blood and flesh (isn't that really cannibalism, when you get right down to it?!?) Some believe you aren't a "true believer" unless you go on a mission and/or proselytize to others. Others believe in a quiet, personal practice of their beliefs.

When you look at the realities and contradictions of religion, it is very, very easy to become a non-believer.

I count among my friends a Methodist minister, a Jewish rabbi, and more than one Unitarian minister. Except for all the "Jesus talk," I am actually very like minded with the Methodist. I am even more like minded with the rabbi. I belong to the Unitarian church, and despite the very wide range of beliefs there we are more cohesive in core beliefs than any other group I have encountered.

You would label me a "non-believer" because I do not believe in the "holy trinity," I do not believe in the literalness of the Bible, and I have rejected all dogma of religion. But I assure you, my spiritual life is as rich as anyone's here, and my morals and values can stand up to any "believer's" values any day.
 
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Diana_P is offline Diana_P Post #53  May 23,2011, 1:21pm
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Wonderwoman402 wrote :
I did not understand how God could decide that I was good enough to go to heaven, but they were not. Wasn't he an all-loving God? Why wouldn't all good people go to heaven? How could he be so fickle on something like that? That was when I started to lose faith.

You would label me a "non-believer" because I do not believe in the "holy trinity," I do not believe in the literalness of the Bible, and I have rejected all dogma of religion. But I assure you, my spiritual life is as rich as anyone's here, and my morals and values can stand up to any "believer's" values any day.
I have no doubt that you are a good person and perhaps even have higher morals than some who subscribe to dogma.

There are no conditions on the gift of salvation other than accepting it. So what happens to those who never get that oppurtunity? What happens to those who have accepted salvation and live against God just because they know they are saved? These are good questions.

Some Christians who believe they have a "get out of hell free card" by being saved live very interesting lives to say the least. I was taught that once you are saved you can't be "unsaved" but I never believed that meant you should try to be unsaved.

Why wouldn't all good people go to heaven? I'm sorry I can't answer your question; maybe someone else here can?
Last edited by Diana_P; May 23,2011 at 1:24pm.
 
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charmingphlsphr is offline charmingphlsphr Post #54  May 23,2011, 6:16pm
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Diana_P wrote :
I have no doubt that you are a good person and perhaps even have higher morals than some who subscribe to dogma.

There are no conditions on the gift of salvation other than accepting it. So what happens to those who never get that oppurtunity? What happens to those who have accepted salvation and live against God just because they know they are saved? These are good questions.

Some Christians who believe they have a "get out of hell free card" by being saved live very interesting lives to say the least. I was taught that once you are saved you can't be "unsaved" but I never believed that meant you should try to be unsaved.

Why wouldn't all good people go to heaven? I'm sorry I can't answer your question; maybe someone else here can?
Jesus answered the question: "No one is good—except God alone" (Mark 10:18). The matter of goodness on the basis of human judgment is too subjective to be an adequate assessment regarding the general thoughts on merit, when the reality is that all sin is held to be equally worthy of condemnation. One considers abortion as a great evil and another does not, but instead holds animal cruelty to be a great evil. We all deserve the wrath of God because of our misdeeds, but, because of our inability to merit entrance to heaven and eternal communion with Him, He gave His Son to die for us. He lived the life we cannot. He paid the price for our sins.
 
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acelticsteve is offline acelticsteve Post #55  May 23,2011, 8:55pm

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Diana_P wrote :
Okay, I can follow that line of reasoning. Some Christians believe that we are servants of God, but God also serves us and His Laws were given to us as proof of that. Is that where you were going?
Interesting reply. The english word "lord" goes back to an Anglo-Saxon word that is litterly "loaf word" or keeper of the loaf or food. when an Anglo-Saxon yoman found him self in a situation where he could not take care of himself he could go to a thine and put his head in the man's hands and they by would become a vasel of the thane and the thane would become the man's lofe word and was responcible for his vassels' needs. interestin pictures of many Bible truths there.
However, where I was going is this: God knew about say STD's including AIDS so if we keep his comandments about not foracating then we lesson the posabuility os contacting thoes illnesses. Many flase gods that men have worshiped in the past have required human secrfice, childern sacrfice. by not worshiping thoese gods we save ourselves thoese problems. Think of the messory around some one who is murdered, what the famly goies through, well there is "thoue shell not kill". I guess that if you look at it that way then the laws of God are an expression of His love, as well as his holyness. There are many laws in the pentatude that can't be obayed to day, none of the sacrfices or laws related to the temple can not be done because the temple does not exist.
 
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acelticsteve is offline acelticsteve Post #56  May 23,2011, 9:43pm

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ANDR3W wrote :


Am i the only one who sees a problem with using the bible as evidence to prove that the bible is true? How is it that you do not see the circularity of this line of reasoning? What is so special about Christian faith and the Christian bible in comparison to all of the other faiths and holy books in the world?
in a way I agree with what you are sayin about circular thinking. The truth is that are tons of arcelogical evedence, and many different disciplilns also have evidence, the problem is that there realy are people out there who wish to supress the evidence or the intupritation of it that does not go along with their theroies. some of this is pride, some of it is a hatrid of God. This problem is not limited to creation science but it extends to any one who comes up with some thing that goes aganst the poplur wisdom of the day. Halley's Bible Handbook has pages of archaeological descoveries related to events that the Bible talks about. There is arkdiscoveries.com that has some very interesting things that are worth looking at. If I miss the site name try arkdiscovery.com or put Red Sea Crossing on your surch window and it will come up.
personally what got my attachion was the third chapter of Romans, and Issiah 59:2, when I saw the truth of these verses in my own life I was convinced that I neede to make some changes, that was the night that I became a Christian.
You asked how the Bible and Christianity differ from other religons it is best stated in these verses, Titus 3:5 "He saved us, not by works of rightousness that we have done but acording to His mercy through the washing of regenerationand the renewing by the Holy Spirit." and Ephensians 2:8,9 "For by grace you are saved through faith,and not from your self; it is god's guift- not of works so that no one can boast" Wvery other religon has a list of rules tath you have to obay and maybe you will please god.
That is enough for now.
 
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acelticsteve is offline acelticsteve Post #57  May 23,2011, 9:53pm

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Diana_P wrote :
There is a saying: "There are no atheists in Hell." It is funny because it is one statement that both believers and non-believers can agree on. Christians say this because many believe once you are saved there is no way you can undo it. So even if you lose your faith if you are saved you will still go to Heaven. It's like God holds up his end of the bargain regardless.

I'm just curious. What do you think it would take to make someone devout into a non-believer?
Devoted to what and believe what is the question. I was like wounderwoman in many ways untill I was about 13. I went to church and tried to live right. but when I was about that time I relized taht I would never be good enough to please God. At first it was a load off my shoulders, but then how do you live after that. I went about making it up as I went along. it is funny I got more self rightous. The rest of the story is on other thrieds on this board, one can find them by looking for threads that I started.
 
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acelticsteve is offline acelticsteve Post #58  May 23,2011, 10:05pm

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Diana_P wrote :

Why wouldn't all good people go to heaven? I'm sorry I can't answer your question; maybe someone else here can?
The answer to that is in the nature of law. Most people thimnk that if their good out ways their bad they are OK. but the Ten Comandments are part of a body of law, if you brake one of mans laws you are considered a criminal and are punished accordinly. No one would consider himself a criminal for speeding but in the strictest sence he is, and will have to pay the fine. It is the same with God's law, except no one has ever keept the whole law their intire life and the penility for braking is stiff indeed. After all no one is perfict, except Jesus.The penility is death, seems harse and it is. That was why Jesus came and gave himself to death so he could pay the price for all of us. Jefferson was right about this "not even God will save some one aganst their will" So you got to ask.
 
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ANDR3W is offline ANDR3W Post #59  May 27,2011, 6:09am
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Diana_P wrote :
Obviously I can’t speak for all Christians, but for me it is a feeling. I admit I may be getting what this feeling is telling me wrong, but I know there is more to me than just atoms.

If you put a mirror in front of a dog or a cat it can’t discern that image is a reflection. Dolphins, some monkeys, apes, and humans can. I don’t want to start an argument about whether or not those creatures have souls. My point is that science can not prove the soul doesn’t exist any more than it can prove God doesn’t exist.

If human beings don’t have a soul and their thoughts and actions are purely due to sensory input, instinct, and processed memories, I think we would all be a lot more like the worker bee or drone in an ant colony. We would be driven purely by duty and survival and our “egos” wouldn’t exist. Although other animals exhibit self awareness humans are the only ones who can separate themselves from what they are experiencing. “Choice” is the distance between action and response. I believe that abstract, that distance, that instant of self reflection, is the soul.

I did like your illustration and look forward to your reply.



Just because you get a good feeling from practicing Christianity does not mean the Christianity is true. By that logic every religion that gives those who practice it a good feeling must also be true. How is it that you have come to the conclusion that your specific religion and concept of God alone are true. Islam, Mormonism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Scientology etc all provide comfort and meaning to those that practice them, why have you not chosen any of them as your belief system? Is it just a coincidence that most people adopt the religion of the culture they grow up in?
 
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