Gods will and sex vs abstinence for older folks


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j0hn8andy is offline j0hn8andy Post #11  November 23,2009, 7:20am
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.....yes, she.....Sweeps past softly, without a sigh.....

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LookinUp wrote :
Wow - where did all the religious people go? Is everyone dropping their stones and walking away?

Do you talk to your boyfriends BEFORE having sex to discover expectations for the relationship - and about preferences ...or do you just go with the flow.

Im sort of disaapointed that no one has appeared to enourage me to WAIT. ...oh there was another assumption.
Could be they're 'creeped out'.....discussing sex with a.....shadow. You do come on a little strong. Just sayin'.

My husband only died a year ago. So I don't have 'boyfriends'. But I can't imagine talking about it ahead of time. Especially not those 'preferences'. So, yeah, I'd rather 'just go with the flow'.

As for why I or anyone else isn't encouraging you to wait.....I hope it isn't too big a disappointment to learn that your sex life is of absolutely no concern to me. You're a big boy. I'm going to pay you the respect of letting you make those sorts of decisions all by yourself!

Fleuellen wrote :
Well, the bible does provide the solution that should a woman's hsuband die, then her brother in law must marry her. I can't recall if there is a qulification about whether they have children or not. But I do pray stridently for my brothers long and good health!
Wasn't that so they could keep the Inheritance in the family? Wealth, lands, etc.? But I'm with you on that. I'm glad I don't have to go from being the one and only wife to being part of a harem of wives. I say that even though I dearly love at least one of my brothers-in-law, and his wife!

lil_lamb wrote :
i also truly like the sentiment embedded in the wedding vow, "with my body i thee worship, with my soul i thee wed."
Very nicely said, indeed!


j8a
 
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olneyjeeps is offline olneyjeeps Post #12  November 23,2009, 7:26am
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I have not really found anything in any of the posts I could disagree with. I totally agree with WW's assessment of feeling guilty. IMHO you should never feel guilty about doing (or not doing) what YOU feel is right IFF you have fully considered the reasoning of why you feel it is right. What I am saying is that you should not be one of the hordes of lemmings that blindly follow what someone else (aka the Bible) said. If the belief seems self serving IT USUALLY IS!

Being divorced (3 years) my personal view on abstinence is that a potential partner must
  1. be someone I see substantial possibility of spending the rest of my life with (to many criteria to list)
  2. be breathing
Sex is one of the greatest conduits of communication. IMHO if either partner cannot communicate, the relationship is doomed. Waiting until after marriage for sex is the equivalent to waiting to talk. Therefore, the woman must be a a great lover, including (but not limited to):
  1. not selfish
  2. enjoys as much as I do (could not deal with girl that did not climax)
  3. be breathing
 
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lil_lamb is offline lil_lamb Post #13  November 23,2009, 10:46am
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Wonderwoman402 wrote :
What?!? You think married people should be chaste too? I'll bet that goes over really well with the guys!

I would think, in general, it would be more difficult for experienced people to be chaste. They know the joy that an intimate sexual relationship with their partner can bring, and know that life is better with it than without it.

The OP asked how a relationship is better WITHOUT sex. I would say... it is not. And I do not believe God requires us to live that way.
chastity, as a theological concept, doesn't mean abstinent. it means having one's sexuality integrated with one's whole being. i.e., being comfortable having sex when the time is right, and being comfortable not having it when the time isn't. there's more to consider than the relationship between the two people when it comes to deciding if sex is the thing to do at any given time.

physical intimacy is indeed part of relationships. it was created by god, and it's holy. god doesn't ask us to live without ever having it, but he asks us to have it in the way he intended. it is not a necessity and it's not programmed into us the way it could have been - i.e., we have no heat season. the pleasure of sex is a gift from god, not a payment owed to us from god. the source of joy is god, not the sex.

that's how the theology breaks down.
 
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dnnmllr is offline dnnmllr Post #14  November 23,2009, 4:13pm
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Scripture reads, Do not defile the marriage bed.....and if you have not "self-control".....marry. (note: this is another discussion altogether).

The gift of marriage = the conjugal act of love.
 
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Fleuellen is offline Fleuellen Post #15  November 23,2009, 4:30pm
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lil_lamb wrote :
...being comfortable having sex when the time is right...
amen to that sister ... mind you I recall a few times with late wife when there was some disharmony over what was meant be right time ... I tend the feel that we are responsible if we have sex not and no one else ... no I'm not talking about masturbation (fun as such can be) but it is not our partners responsibility ... what I might choose to do is my choose, and whether partner chooses to maintain a relationship is there’s ... I may well (and have observed certain abstinences around issues of respect, care, ill health bla bla bla ... Then again sex is fun and good for my (mental health) ... better than medication. So I make other choices ... I feel much closer to god that way, in reverence for his will.
 
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lil_lamb is offline lil_lamb Post #16  November 24,2009, 12:04am
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boy, i have to say i've never heard anybody say the gift of marriage is sex. children, i do believe, are considered the supreme gift normally.
 
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dnnmllr is offline dnnmllr Post #17  November 24,2009, 12:27pm
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lil_lamb wrote :
boy, i have to say i've never heard anybody say the gift of marriage is sex. children, i do believe, are considered the supreme gift normally.
Excerpts from encyclical(s) written by Pope John Paul II:

".....As the image of God, men and women are created for love, and this love is profoundly manifest in consecrated sexual intimacy. Pope John Paul II's approach to human love and sexuality envisions sex not as something purely biological, but as a component of the innermost being of the human person. He sees sexuality as a physical giving of oneself to another which reaches its true and full meaning when it expresses itself in the intimate communion of persons through the sacramental sign of marriage:

Love is a gift of God, nourished by and expressed in the encounter of man and woman. Love is thus a positive force directed towards their growth and maturity as persons. Love is also a precious source for the self-giving which all
men and women are called to make for their own self-realization and happiness. In fact, man is called to love as an incarnate spirit, that is, soul and body in the unity of the person. Human love hence embraces the body, and the
body also expresses spiritual love . . . realized in a truly human way only if it is an integral part of the love by which a man and a woman commit themselves totally to one another until death (Familiaris Consortio, no. 11).

To the Holy Father, sexuality is a fundamental component of personality, that is, one of its means of expressing and of living out human love. This gift of love is transformed
through the power of Christ's redeeming grace, and we become partakers in His divine nature: "as an incarnate spirit, that is, a soul which expresses itself in a body and a body informed by an immortal spirit, man is called to love in his unified totality. Love includes the human body, and the body is made a sharer in spiritual love" (Familiaris Consortio, no. 11).

Sexuality has love as its intrinsic end and its meaning must be understood in light of Christian revelation: "sexuality characterizes man and woman not only on the physical level, but also on the psychological and spiritual, making its mark on each of their expressions. Such diversity, linked to the complementarity of the two sexes, allows thorough response to the design of God according to the vocation to which each one is called" (The Pontifical Council for the Family, The Truth and Meaning of Human Sexuality: Guidelines for Education within the Family , no.13).

When love is lived out in marriage, both spouses "through this union, experience the meaning of their oneness and attain to it with growing perfection day by day" (Gaudium et Spes, no. 48). Love between a man and a woman is achieved when they give themselves totally to each other in the marriage covenant where God has willed that human life is to be conceived, nurtured, and developed. Sexual giving, then, belongs to married love alone where "the physical intimacy of the spouses becomes a sign and a pledge of spiritual communion" (CCC, no. 2360). This expression of lifegiving love in the conjugal act has two inseparable aspects: union and procreation. As Pope John Paul II states:
By its intimate structure, the conjugal act, while most closely uniting husband and wife, capacitates them for the generation of new lives, according to the laws
inscribed in the very being of man and of woman. By safeguarding both these essential aspects, the unitive and the procreative, the conjugal act preserves in its fullness the sense of true mutual love and its ordination towards man's most high calling to parenthood. (John Paul II, The Theology of the Body: Human

Love in the Divine Plan, 432)....."

Note: this topic has soooo much to note..... I tried to include a "snippette" of what was relevant to the topic.

I wish all threaders well.
 
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Wonderwoman402 is offline Wonderwoman402 Post #18  November 24,2009, 7:18pm
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lil_lamb wrote :
boy, i have to say i've never heard anybody say the gift of marriage is sex. children, i do believe, are considered the supreme gift normally.
Not everyone who gets married has children. Nearly everyone who gets married has sex.
 
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lil_lamb is offline lil_lamb Post #19  November 25,2009, 12:40am
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dnnmllr wrote :
Excerpts from encyclical(s) written by Pope John Paul II
eh, you know, this is really quite different from "the gift of marriage is sex." i mean, the RCC is excruciatingly tight in its writings. so to wit, "sexuality has love as its intrinsic end" and "love is a gift of god, nourished by and expressed in the encounter of man and woman" very much do not equate sex with the love - which is the gift as stated. saying love is sex's end, or pursuit, very much distinguishes and separates the two, separates this deed from god's gift.

really, the whole purpose of sacramental marriage in the church is to give folks a boost towards elevating their sexuality towards that end.
 
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lil_lamb is offline lil_lamb Post #20  November 25,2009, 12:54am
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Wonderwoman402 wrote :
Not everyone who gets married has children. Nearly everyone who gets married has sex.
and not everyone who has sex enjoys it. quite a tremendous lot of people throughout history have not enjoyed it, certainly not with the person they ended up married to.

the crux here is what a "gift" is. a gift is a "nice to have," not a "must." it should make no difference to you whether or not you get gifts. you get married and don't make babies, you don't get that gift, whatever. you have sex and don't like it, you don't that gift, whatever. you get these gifts, wow! that's icing on the cake.

you know, doing your duty always wins more merit than merely doing what you like. being holy is loving to do your duty. sometimes we mistake "love is the greatest thing of all" to mean we should do what we love; it doesn't mean that. it means we should love what we are obliged to do.
Last edited by lil_lamb; November 25,2009 at 10:07am.
 
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