Ephemera is offline Ephemera Post #81  September 22,2009, 1:07pm
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I think that perhaps some of the perceived animosity of the OP and other atheists comes from the circumstances of growing up in a world that is seriously over the tipping point in it's acceptance of religion but not in it's acceptance of the lack of same. Regardless of how this country was or was not founded, regardless of how many varieties of religious beliefs there are, regardless of how many friends one has of one or another theory - this country in this day is skewed towards religion. For those of us with no belief in any sort of godlike thing it is frustrating, limiting, and can at times fill us with rage. And just like we smile when the mention of the tooth fairy is made, so do we smile at the mention of gods and goddesses. Both seem like the same kind of immature thinking to many of us.
 
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graceventually is offline graceventually Post #82  September 22,2009, 1:43pm
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Ephemera, you have every right to believe as you will. But I think you'll have to concede that your attitude, and others like it, give the impression of the perceived condescension that a number of us have noted above.
 
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Ephemera is offline Ephemera Post #83  September 22,2009, 3:24pm
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Yes, I absolutely agree with you - it does appear to be condescending and the truth is that it probably is condescending. For my part it is not because of any animosity or any need to change the way you or anyone else believes, it is just the same way that adults feel with the child that still holds the tooth fairy belief. To me it seems as if intellect and those religious beliefs are incongruous in an adult. I don't know how to think of it differently. I know many intelligent individuals with religious beliefs, yet somehow when the talk in any way brings up those beliefs I do think slightly less of their intellect at those moments. I try not to show it and I know that it would be best if I did not feel that way at all, but it is instinctual. I know with absolute certainty that we all have a perfect right to hold whatever beliefs we chose and just so long as those beliefs do not infringe upon anothers rights or freedoms then I've no problem with how another thinks. It is just that this country does make it a problem for many of us that are not religious. I don't remember which poster brought up the issue of presidency, but I too do not think that an atheistic candidate would stand much of a chance to hold that office for that reason alone. And that is unfair. That is the sort of thing that causes the rage. I do not put my intelligence on a pedestal as I am all too aware of my lack of knowledge in soooo many areas, but I do know what you are talking about.
 
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graceventually is offline graceventually Post #84  September 22,2009, 4:58pm
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I appreciate your candid response.

I spent the day with about 500 other clergy at a conference, and believe me, there was plenty of intellectual ability represented in that room; all of it focused on honing our skills and finding new ways to celebrate in worship (note I didn't say "explain") the traditions and sacraments of the church. But it wasn't only intellectual; there was a spirit there that was more easily felt and appreciated than described. There was nothing "immature" about it; although I think that one probably had to be there to know that. I'm not sure that talking about it does the event justice.

I saw people discussing some serious issues of theology, liturgy, and pastoral care.....none of which remotely resembled the tooth fairy. Perhaps your concept of what mature, serious believers believe in needs to broaden a bit? I doubt I'd be able to take Christians seriously either, if I thought they all viewed God as a tooth fairy with a flowing white beard.
 
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Ephemera is offline Ephemera Post #85  September 22,2009, 5:23pm
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You misunderstand me. I do not think that christians or followers of any other religious theories think of their god/gods/goddesses as tooth fairies with beards. The immaturity factor is the ability to believe in the myth as reality. I do not dispute the entire intellect of the religious, just that aspect of the intellect. If one does not see that the belief in a tooth fairy is identical to the belief in a god/goddess then that is the faulty thinking that makes me question that part of the intellect. I have no problem with children believing in the tooth fairy but adults grasp the absurdity of it's possibility and to me there is no difference between the belief in a tooth fairy and the belief in the god/goddess.
 
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graceventually is offline graceventually Post #86  September 23,2009, 10:47am
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I wonder, then, if that is a fault in your own thinking, but perhaps "fault" is the wrong word? More likely, it is simply that you have not experienced the presence and grace of God in the way that some others have. As I said earlier, I can understand an agnostic who simply hasn't had much in the way of religious experience and thus finds themselves with questions and doubts; just as I can understand any believer who has had their ups and downs. But, your assumption seems to be that the experience of every believer and every variety of religious experience is akin to a child's belief in the tooth fairy, and that seems to me to be quite a stretch. It seems to be a lack of faith in other people (or at least, faith in their ability to describe their own impressions and experiences), as much as it is a lack of faith in a higher being? After all, the believers I know -including me - don't perceive any similarity at all in these things that you claim are quite similar.
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Ephemera is offline Ephemera Post #87  September 24,2009, 7:54am
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I think I've reached the end of this exchange as you are not hearing the correct meaning of the words I type. Faith = magical thinking. Magical thinking = immature thinking. Really - it's that simple. I, again, have no problem with you believing as you chose but it is not something I buy into. The whole description of your conference is just another example of the reason religion and motivation speeches are so effective at mind control - any group can be filled with enthusiam and led to believe that what they are feeling is from a god/goddess or just about any other source. It's a form of mass hysteria and very well documented. Okay - I'm done.
 
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graceventually is offline graceventually Post #88  September 24,2009, 9:35am
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Well, I hardly think anyone was "hysterical", nor was anyone being "controlled". Perhaps I did not describe it well, or you read things into my description that I did not intend. I apologize if I mischaracterized it. It was, in fact, empowering and encouraging.

Again, I can understand someone who questions. But how do you know minds were controlled? How do you know this is "just another example" of what you cited? How do you, in short, believe you have the authority and knowledge to completely discount the religious experience of everyone else - and, the possibility that maybe, just maybe, some force outside ourselves was working with us? I don't see how you can be so certain, truly. But I do appreciate your participation in the exchange here.

I think we have another area of disagreement, however. You used the term "magical thinking", which is a psychological term for certain dysfunctional thought patterns. It is thinking that is more delusional and unhealthy than immature, as I understand it. I believe it generally occurs in the population with other observable, diagnosable criteria for mental illness. I fail to see how the term applies to a spiritually healthy and mature believer of any of the world's religions, quite frankly. Magic (in fairy tales) changes things. Faith changes us. One has nothing to do with the other. "Magic" is something that therefore would, I believe, be rejected by most Christians, Muslims, Jews, etc., as being irrelevant to their practice of faith. It is curious to me how some atheists use the terms "magic" or "magical" when dismissing religious experience and expression. It seems to spring from a fundamental misunderstanding.

Thank you, though; for your willingness to participate in a frank exchange.
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flippenstipper is offline flippenstipper Post #89  September 29,2009, 2:53pm
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wrote :
Scratch an atheist and you will see before you a mind just as closed as the most fundamentalist religionists. I have nothing personal against atheists other than they tend, as a group, to be a little too certain of the rightness of their cause and this sense of rightness (righteousness) can be dangerous if it was linked to power.

Fundamentalist is basic truth, and we derive that from the Bible. Everyone wants power but only those with truth have it. They are free from sin by the Love of the Holy Spirit given them. It is dangerous NOT to believe truth and recieve Gods' Love. Jesus Saves! The message is clear.
 
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chawks64 is offline chawks64 Post #90  September 30,2009, 8:15pm
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graceventually wrote :
Well, I hardly think anyone was "hysterical", nor was anyone being "controlled". Perhaps I did not describe it well, or you read things into my description that I did not intend. I apologize if I mischaracterized it. It was, in fact, empowering and encouraging.

Again, I can understand someone who questions. But how do you know minds were controlled? How do you know this is "just another example" of what you cited? How do you, in short, believe you have the authority and knowledge to completely discount the religious experience of everyone else - and, the possibility that maybe, just maybe, some force outside ourselves was working with us? I don't see how you can be so certain, truly. But I do appreciate your participation in the exchange here.

I think we have another area of disagreement, however. You used the term "magical thinking", which is a psychological term for certain dysfunctional thought patterns. It is thinking that is more delusional and unhealthy than immature, as I understand it. I believe it generally occurs in the population with other observable, diagnosable criteria for mental illness. I fail to see how the term applies to a spiritually healthy and mature believer of any of the world's religions, quite frankly. Magic (in fairy tales) changes things. Faith changes us. One has nothing to do with the other. "Magic" is something that therefore would, I believe, be rejected by most Christians, Muslims, Jews, etc., as being irrelevant to their practice of faith. It is curious to me how some atheists use the terms "magic" or "magical" when dismissing religious experience and expression. It seems to spring from a fundamental misunderstanding.

Thank you, though; for your willingness to participate in a frank exchange.
Well said.

Calling faith "magic" is an attempt to redefine it when it has already been defined in a completely different manner. If it needs to be redefined to make a valid point, then you really aren't discussing the original concept anymore. Talk about mind control...
 
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