mary_mary is offline mary_mary Post #121  July 11,2010, 6:32pm

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chawks64 wrote :
This is where I disagree.
No, you don't. You are disagreeing with something you made up. Not with me.

chawks64 wrote :
I'm sorry, but publicly being a Christian is enough to make some people get all uptight and demand that we just shut up. Sometimes that's a theist making it an issue and sometimes it's an atheist or differing religion not wanting to hear it. Do you seriously believe all atheists are wonderful and respectful human beings??? I know many thate are, but I also know some who are not.
Why on earth are you asking me this? What have I said that would imply that I believe such a thing, seriously or otherwise?

chawks64 wrote :
Maybe this is an issue of semantics. What do you consider "making them an issue"? Admitting to theological beliefs in public when you hold a public office?
For goodness' sake, come on -- how many times and in how many ways do I have to say it?? Can How can you continue offering hypotheticals for what I am talking about, when I have made it plain over and over and over?

I am talking about
- individuals in positions of public authority espousing religious belief or engaging in religious practices in the course of their employment or performance of their office
(think "teacher" or "police chief" or "judge", engaging in prayer or displaying religious symbols or disparaging those who do not share their beliefs)
- public bodies espousing religious belief or engaging in religious practices in the course of their public functions
(think "senate" legislating discrimination based on belief, or engaging in prayer in the senate chamber)

I have never been talking about (and am not interested in talking about) how individual theists and atheists treat each other.

This isn't an issue of semantics. It's a question of you not keeping on talking about something that I have clearly explained was NOT what my original statement (that you challenged) was about!

chawks64 wrote :
If a person is espousing either theistic or atheistic policies during the course of their duties, that would be unethical. If they are espousing theistic or atheistic policies while in the course of their daily, personal life, then they are well within their rights of freedom of expression.
Yes. That seems quite simple, doesn't it?

If a teacher chooses to read a religious text, or preach a religious doctrine, or display a religious symbol, not on the employer's time and not on the employer's premises, this is the teacher's business and is a protected activity. If a teacher does it in the classroom, it is a discriminatory activity: the teacher is the one who has made an issue of their beliefs by doing that. (There are some possible grey areas: a teacher who posts blatantly bigoted material on the internet might be one; a student might reasonably feel that they would not receive equal treatment in that teacher's classroom.)

chawks64 wrote :
I beg to differ. I do believe "The Origin of the Species" would be considered sacred text by many I have spoken to...
And you know what you have said is nonsense, I know it's nonsense, and everybody knows it's nonsense. Which is why I know you're joking.

We don't get to define words by our own private dictionaries when we engage in public discussion. "Sacred text" has a meaning, and it isn't "book about evolution".

chawks64 wrote :
Again (and again...), I actually believe in evolution but was trying to pick an example I was not personally attached to.
And again I'll say: there is no such example. There is no atheist equivalent of a bible (or pick your sacred text example). There is no equivalency between a text about evolution and a religion's sacred text. Not least, in our context, because evolution is not an atheist "doctrine", as you yourself agree.

Atheists do not have texts that they regard as revealed truth, unchallengeable dicta, the product of a perfect being's effort, or anything of the sort.

chawks64 wrote :
When you protest religious expression by individuals because of the office they hold, what would you call that?
I'm sorry that I can't answer, because I don't know what "protest religious expression by individuals" means. Protest against the head of government attending a religious service held by the religious organization they belong to? Or protest the head of government praying in the legislature?

If the former, I'd call it improper, since a head of government is as entitled to engage in religious practice as an individual as is anyone else. If the latter, I'd call it essential.

chawks64 wrote :
See, it's things like that which make it difficult to have a reasonable discussion. It's called mud-slinging, when you assign certain behavior ("obvious religious factors, which tend to be smokescreens for political and economic power struggles") to an entire group of people, the majority of which you've never actually met. Is that honestly helpful to the discussion, or does it just make it easier to argue against a stereotype?
Oh my goodness, I'm despairing.

My comment about smokescreens referred, for instance, to why the Crusades were fought, why Roman Catholics were persecuted in England a few centuries ago, why jihad is preached by Islamists today, and things like that. Not because "religion is bad" or "Christians/Muslims are bad".

You do not get to take what I said:

"(Sometimes atheists need to pay more attention to the real reasons for the things done in the name of religion, and less to the obvious religious factors, which tend to be smokescreens for political and economic power struggles.)"

and twist it as you have done. I don't know why or how it could not have been clear that I was chiding atheists for blaming religion and its adherents for things that are not the fault of any religion or its adherents. A political movement, for example, may look like and claim to be motivated by religion, but no one, including atheists, should take that at face value, let alone use it as a club against any religion or religious people.

chawks64 wrote :
Hey, you just go with that victim mentality and perpetuate the stereotype that is actually quite rare. I'm sorry if atheism is a minority view. I have nothing to do with that. The Christians I know have never used their power and authority to spread the seeds of that evil Christianity throughout the world. They usually won't even talk about it unless asked. I'm pretty much done here since I'm not the person you seem convinced I am and I honestly don't know anyone who is. But I'm tired of arguing that point and want to get back to living my life. Besides, dinner is ready and my boyfriend is looking pretty hungry.
I will be happy to buy you a mirror if you will give me a shipping address.

Once again, I have encountered someone so bent on being a victim that they are completely unable (unwilling?) to even try to grasp what is being said to them.

I have said NOTHING about you -- except to point out how persistently you have misread/misinterpreted/misrepresented (how do I know?) what I have said. I have said NOTHING about religion or people who adhere to a religion.

I have said that the only reason that anyone's religious beliefs become an issue in the public context is that THEY make those beliefs an issue by behaving in inappropriate ways (in public employment or public office) or calling for inappropriate action by public authorities: by discriminating or seeking to discriminate against non-believers.

Atheists DO NOT DO THAT. And you have completely failed to address that simple point of mine. Atheists do not seek to have theists discriminated against by public employees, public office-holders, or public authorities.

chawks64 wrote :
Enjoy your view.
If you ever decide to make the little effort it would take to see it, let me know!
 
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chawks64 is offline chawks64 Post #122  July 11,2010, 8:08pm
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Sorry, but I truly do not believe I'm the one making something out of nothing. All I have ever said was that there were obnoxious bigots on both sides, yet you cannot concede even that one point, and keep adding others to it that I never said.

Again, it is absolutely pointless to have a discussion with someone who refuses to actually consider any point other than their own.

I have better things to do with my time. Good night.
 
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mary_mary is offline mary_mary Post #123  July 12,2010, 5:20am

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chawks64 wrote :
Sorry, but I truly do not believe I'm the one making something out of nothing. All I have ever said was that there were obnoxious bigots on both sides

You are insisting on talking to me about something I never said, and something I have never disagreed with.

(By the way, although you have declined to acknowledge what I said to try to clear up your misunderstanding of my statement about religion being a smokescreen for other things when evil is done in the name of religion: atheists who blame (all) religion and (all) religious people for such acts would fall into your "obnoxious bigot" category, in my estimation. Christopher Hitchens might be an example here.)

What I said -- try rereading the first post of mine that you responded to, if you ever read it to start with; it may help -- was that nobody's beliefs are ever a PUBLIC ISSUE unless believers make them that. If you didn't understand what I was saying the first time around, you cannot help but understand it now. The issue of religion is never A PUBLIC ISSUE unless believers make it one.

I said nothing about "bad behaviour". I said nothing about anyone being obnoxious. I said nothing about one group being better than another.

People being unpleasant to each other as individuals is not A PUBLIC ISSUE. It is not any kind of issue that I said anything about. And all you have done is avoid the issue that I DID raise since you started.

chawks64 wrote :
, yet you cannot concede even that one point, and keep adding others to it that I never said.

Really? Once again, try reading WHAT I HAVE SAID, not what you wish I had said.

You, my dear, are the one who keeps putting words in my mouth.

chawks64 wrote :
Again, it is absolutely pointless to have a discussion with someone who refuses to actually consider any point other than their own.

And it is 100% impossible to have a discussion with someone who thinks they can just make up things the other person has not said and invent a new subject of discussion to suit their fancy.

To refresh our memories, this is what I did say to you, regarding making a public issue of beliefs.

For illustrative purposes: an atheist not wanting religious teachings or practices imposed on their child in a public school is not an atheist with an issue with theists' beliefs. It is an atheist with an issue with the insertion of those beliefs into their child's education and school experience.

See what I'm after? I hope you can enlighten me!

The fact that someone is nasty to you "in public" does not mean that they are making a public issue of your beliefs. Please, please TRY to understand this.

chawks64 wrote :
I have better things to do with my time. Good night.

Good morning, and have a nice day!


 
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chawks64 is offline chawks64 Post #124  July 12,2010, 2:17pm
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Just nice.

Where's that ignore button again?
 
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ANDR3W is offline ANDR3W Post #125  July 13,2010, 7:55pm
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chawks64 wrote :
Just nice.

Where's that ignore button again?

Well i won't ignore you Chawks. The way i see it Christians don't like non-believers because we refuse to get on board the Jesus bus with all the smiley happy believers. Am i wrong?
 
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chawks64 is offline chawks64 Post #126  July 13,2010, 8:13pm
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ANDR3W wrote :
Well i won't ignore you Chawks. The way i see it Christians don't like non-believers because we refuse to get on board the Jesus bus with all the smiley happy believers. Am i wrong?
Um... don't even know where to start with this. Okay, I'll start with "Yes, you're wrong."

Christians don't like non-believers? My friends are all over the map theistically. Atheists, deists, Christians, LDS, JW, Jewish... I honestly don't know what most of them are because it isn't an issue for me (and many others). If you're nice to me (and others) then I'm nice back. May be a bit simplistic, but life is easier that way.

As far as "smiley happy believers", in my experience Christians go through many of the same experiences as non-Christians and don't seem to have the Prozac look any more than anyone else.

Oh... the Jesus bus. You mean this one? Never been on it. I drive a convertible.

Last edited by chawks64; July 13,2010 at 8:15pm.
 
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ANDR3W is offline ANDR3W Post #127  July 13,2010, 11:54pm
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YouTube - Creationism propaganda for children caught on camera

Getting on board the Jesus bus is a metaphor for believing in Christian mythology. Christians are certain that their religious tradition alone is the path to paradise, and that their holy book alone was inspired by God. Having been a Christian myself i can say that there is no more evidence for the Christian God then there is for any of the other Gods that humans have invented through out history. God is a man-made concept, this is why I'm an atheist.
 
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chawks64 is offline chawks64 Post #128  July 14,2010, 3:31pm
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ANDR3W wrote :
Getting on board the Jesus bus is a metaphor for believing in Christian mythology.
I know.
I was making a joke.
Apparently not a good one, though...

ANDR3W wrote :
Having been a Christian myself i can say that there is no more evidence for the Christian God then there is for any of the other Gods that humans have invented through out history. God is a man-made concept, this is why I'm an atheist.
I have seen evidence (not seeing evidence does not equate with a lack of evidence), so I do believe. No, I won't get into the things I have seen, but suffice it to say it was enough for me, and I have a very analytical mind.

I don't expect anyone else to believe because I do, and I'm perfectly content with each of us having our belief system. I'm merely stating that I do believe and have reason enough for myself. I truly do not try to convert anyone.
Last edited by chawks64; July 14,2010 at 3:32pm. Reason: Some days I just can't spell for shite...
 
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Wootz is offline Wootz Post #129  July 14,2010, 4:23pm
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ANDR3W wrote :
Getting on board the Jesus bus is a metaphor for believing in Christian mythology. Christians are certain that their religious tradition alone is the path to paradise, and that their holy book alone was inspired by God. Having been a Christian myself i can say that there is no more evidence for the Christian God then there is for any of the other Gods that humans have invented through out history. God is a man-made concept, this is why I'm an atheist.
Ack, this one will be long. Bear with me here.

I've had experience of this, specifically: certain Christians who will not take no for an answer, who do, in fact, do despicable things with the best of intentions in the name of religion. Those individuals don't get birthday cards from me for a reason. *grin*

The thing about saying that "there is no evidence" is that we are dealing with an issue of faith here. I don't believe there is any way possible to disprove a person's faith (or to prove it to someone who flat out does not believe), as these things are an integral part of a person's mind (or soul, if you will). They are going to believe what they think is right, no matter what I say.

And that's fine. *grin* Like Chawks says, what another person believes or does not is no issue to me. I look for actions to tell me what a person is really like. Chawks has never flaunted her belief, or attempted to ram it down another's throat. That's just bad behavior.

But she will, as I will, attempt to correct generalizations. All Christians aren't the bible thumping, proselytizing, "You Are Going Straight To H-E-Double-Hockey-Sticks!" fire and brimstone believers. Nor do all atheists feel the need to seriously mock a persons faith or tell them that they are being childish and deluded. To me, the fact that some do so simply says something about the person performing those actions- not the entire group.

I firmly believe in a person's right to believe in whatever works for them. That's *belief,* on the inside, where morals and character are born, where ideas and the drive to action begins. Belief can be the impetus that manifests itself in a person's behavior. But behavior is, by and large, public. We have laws that tell us what will get us fined or put in prison. We have standards of social conduct, by which we judge others in their social behaviors.

I could believe in the Great One Eyed One Horned Flying Purple People Eater in the sky, and know with absolute faith that He wanted me to never eat beans, never use the public highway system, and to smack all infidels upside the head. One of these three things would cause me some serious trouble... *grin* Whatever my beliefs, I own final responsibility for my actions.

This, to me, applies to each and every religion as well as the agnostic, the apathetic, and the atheist. Our beliefs, however important to us individually, can never *excuse* bad behavior. The most common bad behavior I see in daily life concerning religion is to believe that one's own stance on religion is the only one that deserves air. Anyone else who speaks of their own opinions, or dares to deny the Truth, they must be shouted down or "convinced" of the error of their ways.

Yes, I see a lot of Christians do this. But then, as I said before, they are the most numerous group. So even if the boorish ones comprise but a small percentage of the whole, they might seem to represent the whole to a casual observer. It is *seriously* tempting for those of us in the minority to retaliate, but it isn't right to respond to bad behavior with bad behavior.

So if we're to talk about our stance on religion, or in this case, atheism, *grin* then we probably should realize that each of us is only able to speak for themselves. Nobody has a monopoly on Truth (in the religious sense), or the lack thereof. There's room in the world for us all to believe what we want- from the seriously strange to the utterly banal. As long as we can be civil to one another, who cares what goes on inside another person's head? *grin*

For myself, I've seen some pretty weird stuff, too. There's a lot in the universe I know I cannot explain- and I am cool with that. And my little coupe is the most un-buslike thing one can imagine... *grin*
 
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chawks64 is offline chawks64 Post #130  July 14,2010, 6:16pm
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Love ya, Wootz!

Oh, and feel free to eat as many beans as you want. Your Great One Eyed One Horned Flying Purple People Eater in the sky told me it was okay as long as you stopped doing that whole Dutch Oven thing...

No one likes to be Dutch Ovened.
 
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