Why Religions (all of them) were created


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abnoba is offline abnoba Post #21  October 20,2008, 7:41pm

I just found out my gramma died. I feel so very sad. I will miss her a lot.

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If christianity lost the right or ability to sell fire insurance, a get out of hell card what would it have to sell or offer. Not much. Push almost any evangelists you want and in a while they will threaten you with hell for not believing what they believe about their god in a book.


The christian boast for 2000 years has been that they--a bunch of clerics--have the keys to heaven and hell. Doubt this and just what does chrisitanity have to offer: little that anyone would ever buy or give up their life for.


Christianit has like all religions been in the death business from the get go. Create a scary paranoid god who needs to be liked and worshipped or he will hurt you forever and once convinced show them a way around this scary god: and what is this way around: believe and this god won't hurt you forever, don't believe and this god will hurt you forever.


Believe what? Pay your money and a million odd clerics will show you how to get around this god.
 
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Tantalus is offline Tantalus Post #22  October 20,2008, 7:51pm
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abnoba,301782 wrote :

If we knew for certain that science made us immortal all the churches, temples, covens, shrines, would begin to empty and soon would be the home of spiders, cobwebs, mice, rats and the homeless druggies and drunks looking for a sort of dry place for the night.


Fear of death is the mother of all religions. Without the pretense that a small group of men and women control immortality religous institutions would die.


As soon as we get over our fear of not being one day the sooner religion will wither away along with all of man's former supertitions.
I agree that fear of death/unknown may havebeen an underlying driving force for the creation of religions, but I think you're underestimating the hold religion has on some peoples' minds. If a biochemist developed a serum that was known to be safe and could make people immortal supermen/women, I'd be willing to bet you a fair number of church goers would continue to go and would even refuse to take the serum as they would see it as an affront to their religion.


Another perspective is that it may be a natural human reaction. Have you ever noticed how some people will just make something up when they don't know the answer to a question? What do you suppose happens if no one has the answer to that question?
 
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zana is offline zana Post #23  October 20,2008, 8:31pm
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abnoba,301541 wrote :

The question (admittedly an unfair and loaded question) is why religions (all of them) were created?

You think?? lol
 
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BuzWeaver is offline BuzWeaver Post #24  October 21,2008, 7:10am
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abnoba,301541 wrote :

BuzWeaver,300714 wrote :







The student stood stun for a minute and said what then am I asking you?


You would be a lot more interesting to debate with if you took the time to avoid the following: overly long posts, filled with too many generalities and way too few specifics. Please avoid cliched cut and paste arguments from one of hundreds of fundamentalist net sites. Stick to the question and don't ramble on about what you see as the weaknesses of science. Do this for a start and who knows we may get to enjoy an intelligent debate.


The question (admittedly an unfair and loaded question) is why religions (all of them) were created?


Are you responding that in your opinion god, your god started religions. If so, we may have room for some intelligent chatter. No, no one is going to go away convinced or overwhelmed and no one is likely to drop their world view. But at least it would be an exercise in intelligent discussion.


None of us are really much interested in sermons.
Its consistence alliance addressing Zana's post. If you have a specific question or point of discussions I'll be happy to address it.
 
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BuzWeaver is offline BuzWeaver Post #25  October 21,2008, 7:25am
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whysoserious,301625 wrote :

BuzWeaver,300714 wrote :


Objective moral values exist only if God exist. Objective moral values do exist therefore God exist. The Naturalist can say I don’t have to accept that, but out side of God they aren’t able to anchor objective moral values, yet intuitively they know that some objective moral values can be so certain within their own mind. Yet, they are unable to anchor it, they then move away from it to try and come out with some other explanations, maybe a subjective notion of this.

When Ravi Zacharias was at the University Nottingham, a student said, there is too much evil in this world there cannot be a God. Ravi said to him, but sir, when you say there is such a thing as evil aren’t you assuming there is such a thing as good? Yes, said the student. Then Ravi said, when you say there is such a thing as good, aren’t you assuming there is a moral law and the basis from which to differentiate between good and evil?

The student struggled for a while and said, I will grant you that. Ravi continued by saying, when you say there is such a thing as a moral law aren’t you in some way assuming there is a moral law giver, because if there is no moral law giver there is no moral law, if there is not moral law there is no absolute good, if there is no good there is no evil what is your question, because you are trying to disprove the moral law giver.

The student stood stun for a minute and said what then am I asking you?


Objective moral values exist only if God exist. Objective moral values do exist therefore God exist.


That is some of the worst logic I have witnessed in quite sometime.


When Ravi Zacharias was at the University Nottingham, a student said, there is too much evil in this world there cannot be a God. Ravi said to him, but sir, when you say there is such a thing as evil aren’t you assuming there is such a thing as good? Yes, said the student. Then Ravi said, when you say there is such a thing as good, aren’t you assuming there is a moral law and the basis from which to differentiate between good and evil?

The student struggled for a while and said, I will grant you that. Ravi continued by saying, when you say there is such a thing as a moral law aren’t you in some way assuming there is a moral law giver, because if there is no moral law giver there is no moral law, if there is not moral law there is no absolute good, if there is no good there is no evil what is your question, because you are trying to disprove the moral law giver.

The student stood stun for a minute and said what then am I asking you?


There is no absolute good or absolute evil. The worst attrocites are commited by those who believe they are truly doing good things. Most other "evil" is committed out of greed, hunger for power, addiction or mental disease. Things that are justified in the minds of those that perpetrate them. How many people do you know of that have committed evil acts and truly thought that they were doing something that wasn't justified?


Good and evil, right and wrong are determined by who ever wins the war/election/economic struggle.


There are no absolutes. There is no black and white, the world is all colors and greys.
Actually the point derisive from fundamental logic, its typically one of the first areas covered in a logic course, even before fallacies.

Whatever is true at one time and at one place is true at all time's and at all places. What is true for one person is true for all person's. Truth is true whether we believe it or not. Truth is discovered or it is revealed, it is not invented by a culture or by religious men.


There are absolutes, all of reality proves this. What we find is that the Christian world view is the most consistent with reality. There is truth and there is falsehood one cannot find what they are wrong in unless they have an ultimate standard. God believes in objective truth because he is that standard. The difference is that as Christians we believe God determines what is true and right which he has instructed in the Bible. Those who hold to the relative position believe man does and he can change as he wills.


EX: of absolutes - we all need air to breathe, to live we all need food and water. this is true for all people everywhere at all times. Gravity works the same everywhere here on the planet.



EX: one cannot be dry and wet at the same time. Something cannot be true and not true at the same time, one must be false or both, but both cannot be true. One cannot go forward and backward at the same time. One cannot live in the past and the future at the same time. Time goes forward it cannot go backward. No one is getting younger instead of older. You cannot have two Mts. Without a valley. You cannot have a stick with one end. You cannot be asleep and awake at the same time.


EX: George Washington was our first president but he no longer is. His being the first president of the US was true for all time and for all people in all places. There will never be a place at any time this is not true. He can never be the 20th president, So it is an absolute truth but for his time.
 
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abnoba is offline abnoba Post #26  October 21,2008, 11:03am

I just found out my gramma died. I feel so very sad. I will miss her a lot.

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BuzWeaver,302310 wrote :

abnoba,301541 wrote :


BuzWeaver,300714 wrote :







The student stood stun for a minute and said what then am I asking you?


You would be a lot more interesting to debate with if you took the time to avoid the following: overly long posts, filled with too many generalities and way too few specifics. Please avoid cliched cut and paste arguments from one of hundreds of fundamentalist net sites. Stick to the question and don't ramble on about what you see as the weaknesses of science. Do this for a start and who knows we may get to enjoy an intelligent debate.


The question (admittedly an unfair and loaded question) is why religions (all of them) were created?


Are you responding that in your opinion god, your god started religions. If so, we may have room for some intelligent chatter. No, no one is going to go away convinced or overwhelmed and no one is likely to drop their world view. But at least it would be an exercise in intelligent discussion.


None of us are really much interested in sermons.


Its consistence alliance addressing Zana's post. If you have a specific question or point of discussions I'll be happy to address it.
Sorry not at all. I have no intention of wasting my time responding to such all but meaningless generalities that allow the poster to infinitely shift his position as needed.





I will simply sum up your rambling post as follows: you think your god created the universe and is the mother of all religions. You think there are moral absolutes (although never defined) and that these undefined moral absolutes prove that your god exists and that it created the universe and all religions. The fact that I think all of this is a big truckload of theistic bull, does not matter. We post in a realm where neither logic nor conventional rules of discussion hold sway. So have fun.
 
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abnoba is offline abnoba Post #27  October 21,2008, 11:10am

I just found out my gramma died. I feel so very sad. I will miss her a lot.

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Tantalus,301825 wrote :

abnoba,301782 wrote :


If we knew for certain that science made us immortal all the churches, temples, covens, shrines, would begin to empty and soon would be the home of spiders, cobwebs, mice, rats and the homeless druggies and drunks looking for a sort of dry place for the night.


Fear of death is the mother of all religions. Without the pretense that a small group of men and women control immortality religous institutions would die.


As soon as we get over our fear of not being one day the sooner religion will wither away along with all of man's former supertitions.


I agree that fear of death/unknown may havebeen an underlying driving force for the creation of religions, but I think you're underestimating the hold religion has on some peoples' minds. If a biochemist developed a serum that was known to be safe and could make people immortal supermen/women, I'd be willing to bet you a fair number of church goers would continue to go and would even refuse to take the serum as they would see it as an affront to their religion.


Another perspective is that it may be a natural human reaction. Have you ever noticed how some people will just make something up when they don't know the answer to a question? What do you suppose happens if no one has the answer to that question?
The few that would not take it out of fear of offending one of the local gods would die off leaving the world without any religions.


I cannot imagine outside of the fear of dying why anyone would want to be a christian, for example. What would they gain? Some company? Lots of ways to get company. Tradition? Lots of secular and humanistic outlets for this need. Singing? Lots of ways to exercise this interest that have nothing to do with an imaginary god. Morals or ethics? No need of an imaginary god to live a moral or ethical life. Most people who claim the need of an imaginary god in order to be good are really saying that if they didn't believe in cop-god watching them they would hurt people. Millions of atheists, agnostics and other secularists have a put a lie to this way of thinking centuries ago.


No, without offering hope of an afterlife religons, especially christianity have nothing of any value to offer.


If they do
 
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jamesp81 is offline jamesp81 Post #28  October 21,2008, 11:14am
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zana,300877 wrote :

jamesp81,300757 wrote :


"What do other people think?"


I think it'd be a good idea if you put on your asbestos suit


LOL!!! hahaha


I know that people have different opinions and that's perfectly fine. Just the personal attacks are not.


So go ahead James, I know you're dying to tell me/us what you think
Actually I think there's some reasonable responses on this thread. Religion is a response to a fear of death and/or the unknown. It's just that I don't view my own Christian faith as a religion. It's a personal relationship with the creator of the universe that has some religion attached to it on the side, but that's all secondary.


Now personally, I think you'd be hot in a silver line asbestos suit. Get it? Hot? Asbestos? Thread flaming....


OK, that was pretty bad
 
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Tantalus is offline Tantalus Post #29  October 21,2008, 11:22am
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BuzWeaver,302335 wrote :

Whatever is true at one time and at one place is true at all time's and at all places. What is true for one person is true for all person's. Truth is true whether we believe it or not. Truth is discovered or it is revealed, it is not invented by a culture or by religious men.
The bulk of your statement right there is actually not correct because relativity disproves it. For example, if you ask two people to measure the speed of a car (one of them is moving in a vehicle and the other is on the side of the road at rest), you're going to get two completely different answers and both of them will be true relative to the observer. Furthermore, the definitions of time and space themselves are not fixed - they both depend on the velocity of the observer. The faster you go, for example, the longer a second becomes because time itself literally expands (and no, this is not a theory, it has been experimentally verified). The only universal constant I know of is the speed of light.
 
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abnoba is offline abnoba Post #30  October 21,2008, 11:22am

I just found out my gramma died. I feel so very sad. I will miss her a lot.

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jamesp81,302602 wrote :

zana,300877 wrote :


jamesp81,300757 wrote :


"What do other people think?"


I think it'd be a good idea if you put on your asbestos suit


LOL!!! hahaha


I know that people have different opinions and that's perfectly fine. Just the personal attacks are not.


So go ahead James, I know you're dying to tell me/us what you think


Actually I think there's some reasonable responses on this thread. Religion is a response to a fear of death and/or the unknown. It's just that I don't view my own Christian faith as a religion. It's a personal relationship with the creator of the universe that has some religion attached to it on the side, but that's all secondary.


Now personally, I think you'd be hot in a silver line asbestos suit. Get it? Hot? Asbestos? Thread flaming....


OK, that was pretty bad
This is such a common cop out argument: christianity is not a religion it is a relationship with a god.





And then they will tell you believe x and not y, Do a and not be. They will load on a pile of moral and ethical and theological and biblical dogmas that you believe or burn. And guess what all that latter is: religion.They will go on and on about not "yoking" yourself with a non believer defined as anyone who does not share their theology.





Christianity is in common with all other religions just a religion and in common with all religions is in the business of managing our fear of death. Take away this role and there is very little left for a religionist to do.
 
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