anniej is offline anniej Post #1  June 14,2008, 10:23am
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The 'Letter of the Law' versus the 'Spirit of the Law': Is it OK to grant equal rights to those who are out to destroy you?
 
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pennyfarthing is offline pennyfarthing Post #2  June 14,2008, 2:22pm
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How do you mean? In terms of a one-on-one encounter, like somebody attacks you, then go ahead and defend yourself, even if they die. That's easy. But do you mean like terrorists? On the one hand, if they really are out to destroy you, then they have violated the implied social contract and thus have forfeited their civil rights (their human rights still exist). Also, just like an individual has the right to self-defense, a nation by extension has that right on behalf of its citizens, since it exists to protect them. Therefore it can defend itself. And it should defend itself - due process only applies to attackers who are arrested alive, and if they found guilty they lose many of their civil rights. The difficulty is of course making sure they actually are out to destroy you and not innocent people. But I'm sorry, where people's lives are involved it is better to err on the side the side of caution, as long as that too is done with caution. For example, say you are a guard at an airport and you see somebody acting suspicious. You better check them out, inspect their luggage, etc. If they were just fidgeting, then no harm done, aside from some inconvenience, but you have to make sure. As long as you don't shoot them when they reach for their cell phone, then their rights as well as public safety have been served. People don't have right to never be inconvenienced or embarrassed.





I don't know if that's what you had in mind.
 
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anniej is offline anniej Post #3  June 17,2008, 1:51pm
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How do you mean? In terms of a one-on-one encounter, like somebody attacks you, then go ahead and defend yourself, even if they die. That's easy. But do you mean like terrorists? On the one hand, if they really are out to destroy you, then they have violated the implied social contract and thus have forfeited their civil rights (their human rights still exist). Also, just like an individual has the right to self-defense, a nation by extension has that right on behalf of its citizens, since it exists to protect them. Therefore it can defend itself. And it should defend itself - due process only applies to attackers who are arrested alive, and if they found guilty they lose many of their civil rights. The difficulty is of course making sure they actually are out to destroy you and not innocent people. But I'm sorry, where people's lives are involved it is better to err on the side the side of caution, as long as that too is done with caution. For example, say you are a guard at an airport and you see somebody acting suspicious. You better check them out, inspect their luggage, etc. If they were just fidgeting, then no harm done, aside from some inconvenience, but you have to make sure. As long as you don't shoot them when they reach for their cell phone, then their rights as well as public safety have been served. People don't have right to never be inconvenienced or embarrassed.





I don't know if that's what you had in mind.
Thanks for your response, it capturesthe essential points, but more specifically, I was thinking about the relevance of following the law slavishly to the point that it becomes an obstacle. Take for example the very high crime rate that we experience in Jamaica. It is almost as if the criminals believe they have a right to kill, just as law abiding citizens have a right to be protected.


What then of the issue of hanging? Some persons may be of the view that it is barbaric, perhaps it is, if that is the case then some thing else can be done like execution. The realityis when people are not protected by the law, when the system is very slow to extract justice then people tend to take the law into their hands and enforce vigilantejustice. So the 'spirit of the law' comes into question because if ithe lawbecomes like a non-functioning head of state (a mere figurehead) then it becomes irrelevant.


It seems to me that there is a huge gap between the 'written law' (letter of the law) and the 'practised law' (spirit of the law). That gap can be bridged by constantly making the law relevant to the times. In the final analysis, the law or the rule of law is necessary for the continution of good order. Can equal rights literally mean, the same rights for those bent on destroying lives and those (victims) who are being destroyed?
 
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acelticsteve is offline acelticsteve Post #4  December 2,2009, 1:05pm

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In the US we believe that thoe rights extend to life, liberity, and the persute of happyness. If some one kills another then he has violated that persons right to life. He is no longer entitled to thoes rights.
 
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Jacquesne is offline Jacquesne Post #5  December 2,2009, 2:04pm
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acelticsteve wrote :
In the US we believe that thoe rights extend to life, liberity, and the persute of happyness. If some one kills another then he has violated that persons right to life. He is no longer entitled to thoes rights.
The irony of this is so thick I could cut it. But I won't go there .

This reminds me of "A Man For All Seasons." In the play there's a section where Sir Thomas Moore is responding to another man, William Roper, when he refuses to arrest a man simply because he is "bad." Roper claims Moore would give the Devil the benefit of law and Moore responds that he would. When Roper states that he would cut down every law in England to get the Devil, Moore responds in one of the most famous lines in the film/play:

"Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned 'round on you, where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country is planted thick with laws, from coast to coast, Man's laws, not God's! And if you cut them down, and you're just the man to do it, do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!"

I have to agree with Moore here. People who are out to destroy you have the same rights you do. Without clarification of what you mean by "destroy" I can't really go into the legal aspect but if you mean "harm" the law does not give them the right to do that. It's a right neither you nor they have.

Any right I have is something that my enemies would share. So yes, I would grant equal rights to someone out to destroy me.

And then I would destroy them within the letter of the law .

Perhaps I don't understand the question?

Jacquesne
 
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acelticsteve is offline acelticsteve Post #6  December 2,2009, 3:14pm

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I have no idea weather you understoo the question or even if I did. you sed that the irony of my statment was so thick you could cut it. maby if we took an aircraft carrier we might be able to smach through. I am welling to try are you? There is no hope for this country otherwise. I wish you would go there that is why I started that thread on equility, to get a debate started. to get people talking about it. to get them thinking, not just for the victems to complain but to bring us face to face with the villon in each of us. I have been fighting this war all my life, I have fought it in my self and with others. I am still fighting it, My flamies were pesents in England, and traids men. I am a sinner saved by grace what do I have proment me to a hifher rank then any one else. But after looking at all the people who feel thet they have some reason to consider themselves better then I I have noticed this they all die hey all twist the facts and make up lies to suport there clames, they do not respect others, they are tyrants, any one can become one at any time it just takes enough pride to think you deserve rights over and above others.
 
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Jacquesne is offline Jacquesne Post #7  December 2,2009, 7:47pm
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I just find the notion of "right to life" being a part of the American way to be ironic.

I thought this country was about, well, choice. But I don't want to change the topic. Ignore me on that one =).
 
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