Why I Want to See Health Insurance Reform Passed

Topic Tools

Search this Thread

bigfincat Post #21 March 1,2010, 5:07pm

Virtuoso

Joined: Nov 2008

Posts: 4,077

See profile

Rand_011 wrote :

Makes your point??

Large company doesn't necessarily have an advantage over a small company ... In many cases their is a disadvantage for a large company over a small company.

Why does anyone have an advantage? Easy, ask your state insurance comissioner ... The only advantages are those that are foisted on insurance companies by the government.

An individual at a disadvantage for competitive prices??? An individual can get the most competitive prices for their insurance ... Example ... A plan might cost $50 for an individual would cost roughly $200 for an employee. (I will exclude NJ and NY from the above example, since the law makers there have priced individual plans out of the market)

Typically, a larger pool is a benefit in cost. I am sure that there are exceptions.

I would say that an individual plan here would cost roughly the same (perhaps ever so slightly less) than an employer based policy. The difference is that the employer based policy is partailly paid for by the employer thus making it far less pricey than the outside individual plan.

Employers in the corporate structure will not give many employees a raise in pay equal to the savings that the company would get in health insurance expenditures. The current system provides a huge disinsentive to buy an individual plan.

If the cost of healthcare were equal then nothing would stop any individual from going the individual route. There would be absolutely no point in going the group route.

The insurance companies should tell their clients that they can get the same plan for a quarter of the price!! My insurance company doesn't try to sell me that... even when I have looked into an individual plan.

You would be amazed at the number of people that do not choose to work independently in part due to the lack of choice in coverage. It doesn't compare in terms of cost or coverage. It is a common disinsentive.

Rand_011 Post #22 March 2,2010, 9:10am

Enthusiast

Joined: Jan 2008

Anaheim

Posts: 998

See profile

bigfincat wrote :

Typically, a larger pool is a benefit in cost. I am sure that there are exceptions.

Typically, true ... However, small companies (under 50 employees) are lumped with all other small companies, so the pool is in fact quite large ... Where as larger companies are treated on a more individual company basis. Which might not bother boeing much, but might be costly to a company with 150 employees when a few people have heart attacks.

I would say that an individual plan here would cost roughly the same (perhaps ever so slightly less) than an employer based policy. The difference is that the employer based policy is partailly paid for by the employer thus making it far less pricey than the outside individual plan.

Employers in the corporate structure will not give many employees a raise in pay equal to the savings that the company would get in health insurance expenditures. The current system provides a huge disinsentive to buy an individual plan.

If the cost of healthcare were equal then nothing would stop any individual from going the individual route. There would be absolutely no point in going the group route.

The insurance companies should tell their clients that they can get the same plan for a quarter of the price!! My insurance company doesn't try to sell me that... even when I have looked into an individual plan.

You would be amazed at the number of people that do not choose to work independently in part due to the lack of choice in coverage. It doesn't compare in terms of cost or coverage. It is a common disinsentive.

On the lack of choice ... In most states there are well over a few hundred options with plans/companies for individuals to choose from ... Same goes on the employer sponsored end (difference being that the employer frequently only offers 1 or 2 of them)

On the cost question end ... I am really confused ... It sounds like you are complaining that employers are paying very large portions of your health insurance and because they are doing so, you (or others) don't want to get insurance on the individual market that may cost less and have less benefits ... Am I understanding this right??

I talk to people just about every day that are upset with how much their insurance through work is ... They are 50 years old and have to pay $150 a month for a $20 copay plan with a $500 ded. for major services ... It always just seems to reinforce in my mind how little people actually understand that they are getting.

bigfincat Post #23 March 2,2010, 2:54pm

Virtuoso

Joined: Nov 2008

Posts: 4,077

See profile

Rand_011 wrote :

Say my employer based insurance costs me $230 per month & costs my employer $230 per month. That plan only costs me $230 per month.

If I look to purchase that same package as a single individual it would cost me in the area of $380...at least.

Employers in a corporate setting do not wish to raise employees pay rate that extra $150 per month.

A $230 individual insurance plan here is really, really bad insurance.

The actual problems only affect me to some degree but healthcare reform really isn't about me.

Corporate structure really does have many positions that have a set (or very limited variation) pay rate. Companies want that rate to stay pretty consistent. More often than not they will resist raising the rate simply because the worker turned down the insurance that was offered.

chapgirl Post #24 March 4,2010, 8:36pm

Quick Study

Joined: May 2009

Los Angeles

Posts: 71

See profile

The Medical Insurance companies post their own profits. They all earned in the multi -millions. There is no reason for them to raise their premium prices, other than greed. Helmsley makes over 150 million per year. That is disgusting! They are spending 5 million dollars a day in lobbying money to protect their profits, and it is a drop in the bucket for them. But they know if a single payer plan passes, their gravy train is over. Unfortunately, they have about the entire Republican party and a few Democrats who have sold their souls to the almighty dollar and have forgotten that we the people are entitled to have at least the same insurance plan that they have, especially since we pay for it!

Rand_011 Post #25 March 5,2010, 8:23am

Enthusiast

Joined: Jan 2008

Anaheim

Posts: 998

See profile

chapgirl wrote :

Wow ... Heaven forbid that a company makes a profit ... I think we should all follow the governments view on profits and just lose 5% a year ...

They are a company ... Companies are generally in existence to make a profit ... Companies generally use profits to either expand, improve efficiency or other avanues ...

No one has the right to health insurance ... It is a service/product that is offered to the public ...

If one is so against health insurance then cancel your coverage ... Cancel your medicare coverage and pay in cash ... My guess is that you don't want to do that ... Why? Because the service/product offered can help you a great deal if the unexpected happens.

Can_I_just_be_Jo Post #26 March 5,2010, 9:57am

blames self-help books

Power Poster

Joined: Oct 2009

STL

Posts: 4,879

See profile

bigfincat wrote :

There is absolutely no reason for insurance to be tied into employment. Why am I pooled with my coworkers? That makes no sense.

I agree.

bigfincat wrote :

(I would guess that it had something to do with a deal between gov't & business. Making it easier to collect taxes for gov't. If we get healthcare elsewhere it makes it much harder to identify earnings. & making employees dependant on their employers.)

I wish I could remember the details but it actually had to do with union negotiations in the 40s. I think a good idea would be to take the tax break away from employer provided plans or give it to all health plans even if you buy private.

bigfincat wrote :

Does anyone know the variation between what different insurance companies pay for time spent in an ER? I would wonder how significant that difference is. Local hospitals charge an hourly rate for its use but they obviously don't recieve full payment for that. The possible variation for services would tell a whole lot about the possible reality of competition. If the variation is insignificant then the effect of competition on costs would not be very significant.

I know but I can't tell you. Seriously it is against the law. What I can say is that most private insurance companies have identical write down rates in their contracts with docotors and hospitals. The outliers are Medicare and Medicade who force write downs that will not cover costs. To adjust for this the shortage the billed rate is raised so that more is shifted to private insurance.

This practice is completely out of control. My knee surgery was billed at $32,000 but written down to $3,800 (this was what was billed to the insurance company).

Where you find the differences in insurance plans is right under your nose. It is what is covered and where and what your copay is. Most people don't realize that difference plans under the same company don't cover the same things and doctors (and their staff) don't know what is or is not until it is billed. When these procedures are kicked out they become the patients responsibility. People don't seem to like that. I know cause my desk is right next to our collectors and jeez do they get yelled at. "BUT I ALREADY PAID MY COPAY!!!"

shedeville Post #27 March 5,2010, 2:39pm

Newbie

Joined: Mar 2010

Soviet Canuckistan

Posts: 15

See profile

Rand_011 wrote :

I call red herring ... Their profits grew becuase their membership grew ... The percent they make in profits has stayed roughly the same ... Wellpoint, one of the larger ones ... Went from operating in a couple states to 14 states => Increase in dollar amount of profit ... UnitedHealthCare purchased PacifiCare/American Medical Security/Golden Rule => Large increase in membership thus a greater dollar amount of profits.

Uh ... whoa. You're seriously saying that increased "membership" accounts for a 250% increase in profits?

Total health insurance customer base increased by 250% over the decade in question?

At the same time as the proportion of the US population that was uninsured rose?

Do math much? Use facts to support claims at all?

wrote :

That would be like complaining that Google is fleecing people becuase they went from (-15) billion to ~20 billion that being way more than a 250% increase

Yes ... kinda like how apples are like oranges ...

Rand_011 Post #28 March 5,2010, 4:54pm

Enthusiast

Joined: Jan 2008

Anaheim

Posts: 998

See profile

shedeville wrote :

Ahh ... The attack back with no substance ... Let's see ... I will reiterate this for you since it may have been too complicated the first time ... The nation's top two health insurers are (IIRC) Wellpoint and UnitedHealthCare ...

Let us dissect that one really quick ... Wellpoint operated in California (Blue Cross) and 5-6 other states (UniCare) (7.8 million insureds) ... UniCare had very little relative market share compared to its competition ... Since 2000 ... Wellpoint now operate in CA, NV, CO, IN, OH, KY, MO, WI, GA, CT, VA, ME and NH ... Now serves just over 100 million people ... That is a slight bit more than a 250% increase ...

UnitedHealthCare ... Didn't sell to individuals anywhere in the country (might have in NY, but I don't believe so) ... In the last 10 years they acquired Golden Rule (at the time the only real nationwide competitor in the marketplace) ... They acquired PacifiCare (large group and individual carrier in the West, who had just acquired American Medical Security the other major nationwide carrier) ... By extension they also acquired Secure Horizons (major Medicare advantage company) ...

Does that math ring any bells for you ... Or am I using too many facts? I could try to break it down further ... But I would think it would be fairly easy to determine that 100 million >> 7.8 million.

shedeville Post #29 March 6,2010, 11:43am

Newbie

Joined: Mar 2010

Soviet Canuckistan

Posts: 15

See profile

Rand_011 wrote :

Ahh ... The attack back with no substance ...

Hahahaha. Wow, no mirrors in this place?

You offered surmise and anecdote. Surmise and anecdote != substance. Or facts.

wrote :

Let's see ... I will reiterate this for you since it may have been too complicated the first time ... The nation's top two health insurers are (IIRC) Wellpoint and UnitedHealthCare ...

Let us dissect that one really quick ... Wellpoint operated in California (Blue Cross) and 5-6 other states (UniCare) (7.8 million insureds) ... UniCare had very little relative market share compared to its competition ... Since 2000 ... Wellpoint now operate in CA, NV, CO, IN, OH, KY, MO, WI, GA, CT, VA, ME and NH ... Now serves just over 100 million people ... That is a slight bit more than a 250% increase ...

Sorry. You let me know when you have some of those fact things, 'k?

Here's a thought. A question, actually.

Did all of the 100 million people now being served by this particular outfit have no health insurance whatsoever, ever before?

May I surmise that the answer to that one is: NO? Not all of those 100 million people were uninsured before taking out coverage with the outfit in question. In fact, I would surmise that most of them were insured, with some other outfit, given that general estimates of the number of uninsured persons in the US at any given time fall well below 100 million, just for starters.

So how could anyone with the most elementary grasp of, oh, facts, logic, reality, be basing an argument on the increase in the customer base of a particular insurance outfit -- when what that outfit has very plainly done is increase its market share, not increase the market size??

wrote :

UnitedHealthCare ... Didn't sell to individuals anywhere in the country (might have in NY, but I don't believe so) ... In the last 10 years they acquired Golden Rule (at the time the only real nationwide competitor in the marketplace) ... They acquired PacifiCare (large group and individual carrier in the West, who had just acquired American Medical Security the other major nationwide carrier) ... By extension they also acquired Secure Horizons (major Medicare advantage company) ...

Does that math ring any bells for you ...

Uh, yeah. It appears to be pretty much what I was just saying: the numbers you are citing are substitutions involving the same customers, ergo the same insurance coverage simply being provided by different insurers -- not new business.

So different insurers within the health insurance industry are selling the same customers (for simplicity; in fact they would be largely overlapping sets of customers) the same products ... and the profits of the industry as a whole have risen 250%.

wrote :

Or am I using too many facts? I could try to break it down further ... But I would think it would be fairly easy to determine that 100 million >> 7.8 million.

Actually, I think it's far easier to evacuate the smoke you're blowing, and observe the extremely obvious fact that the health insurance industry in the US did not expand its market by 250% in a decade ... the same decade when the proportion of the population that is uninsured at any given time rose steadily. Yeesh.

Thank goodness for the clear air up here on this side of the border. I'd hate to live among people so easily bamboozled by such utter nonsense, myself.

But hey, you certainly do have one point.

The health insurance market in the US is becoming increasingly oligarchical and anti-competitive. The fact is that this is not resulting in efficiencies that benefit consumers; it is resulting in, among other things, higher profits as a proportion of revenue.

United Health Care, you say? Why, how convenient that you should mention that. Don't take my word for all this, eh?

The Right Prescription?: Consolidation in The Pennsylvania Health Insurance Industry
(emphases mine)

wrote :

Perhaps the most striking example is the DOJ’s modest enforcement action that permitted the nation’s largest insurer United Healthcare Group to acquire Sierra Health Services, the dominant insurance company in Las Vegas. The merger increased United’s market share from 14 percent to 56 percent in Las Vegas. After an 11-month investigation of a merger posing an unprecedented level of concentration in perhaps the most vulnerable health care market in the United States, the DOJ chose a modest remedy on a single line of business. Even though the DOJ reviewed millions of pages of documents and conducted over 100 interviews, it failed to address the significant loss of competition in both the sale of commercial insurance and purchase of physician services markets. Ultimately, the Nevada attorney general had to step in and file a separate case in federal court with a 61-page consent order to address some, but not all, of the concerns ignored by the DOJ. However both actions permit United to secure over a 56 percent market share in the Las Vegas commercial health insurance market, positioning it as a firm that can increase premiums, reduce service, and reduce reimbursement to hospitals and physicians leading to a lower level of health care in the fragile Las Vegas health care market.

Look there. Market share. Like I wuz saying. United's expansion really, really, really did not somehow double (let us say) the size of the insurance market, thus, as one would reasonably expect in that case, doubling total insurance industry profits. It doubled its share of the market. So it doubled its share of the profits. United doubling its share of insurance industry profits DOES NOT double insurance industry profits.

So how do you like them maths? Feel free to check the work. Or just, like, take an economics 100 course.

Or at least have the good sense and common decency not to try to condescend to someone (hey, look, a woman) when either you don't have a clue or you know full well what you are doing and you are spinning desperately in the hope that no one will notice what that is: that you're being less than, uh, forthright.

dwreese182 Post #30 March 7,2010, 7:20am

Pag-ibig ng isla

Veteran

Joined: Oct 2008

Afghanistan

Posts: 2,215

See profile

shedeville wrote :

Wait, originally you brought up that a single company raised their profits by 250 percent. He explained that said single company raised their membership by 250 percent by expanding in different states or acquiring other companies (which is perfectly legal). Now you are saying the entire health insurance industry. So which is it?

Now I am not really "for" or "against" this bill. The only thing I don't like is a government basically focing my hand on having insurance or not (by imposing a "fine" on me if I choose not to have insurance, essentially taking freedom away from me). I haven't checked his facts, but they certainly make sense if they are true. You changed your argument, making his "facts" invalid.

shedeville wrote :

Or at least have the good sense and common decency not to try to condescend to someone (hey, look, a woman) when either you don't have a clue or you know full well what you are doing and you are spinning desperately in the hope that no one will notice what that is: that you're being less than, uh, forthright.

"Hey, look, a woman"??!! I must have missed that in his reply. While I did catch condescending tone in his reply, I certainly didn't catch any sexist tone to it.

« What do you Think ? | Politics | Constitution Class »

Topic Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new topics You may not post replies You may not post attachments You may not edit your posts	BB code is On Smilies are On [IMG] code is On HTML code is On Trackbacks are On Pingbacks are On Refbacks are Off
Boards Rules

Topic	Topic Starter	Board	Replies	Last Post
Similar Topics
Why is Healthcare such a big deal anyway?	saulgoode	Politics	91	April 10,2010 4:49am
Marry me for health insurance? Not kidding	BrickWallsBreak	Chit Chat	45	February 9,2010 12:26am
Would YOU marry for health insurance?	eHA_Admin_Lori	Relationships	16	February 3,2010 10:12pm
Compromise Of the Left and Right On Healthcare?	DennisWisconsin	Atheists, Humorists, and Science	68	October 5,2009 3:58pm
Double-tapped on health insurance	saulgoode	Politics	34	June 26,2009 7:59pm

Looking for a Great Relationship?

Get started now. Fill out this form and take the questionnaire to receive your matches.

First Name:

I'm a:

seeking

Postal Code:

Country:

Email:

Confirm Email:

Password:

Must be at least 5 characters

How did you hear about us?

Latest on our Dating Advice Discussion Boards

Topic • Category	Views	Posts
First contact on eHarmony, smile, questions, email? • Using eHarmony	57	3
How do i recoonect with him again? • Ask a Dating Expert	11	2
For women to answer: How to avoid the friend zone • Ask a Dating Expert	101	6
is there a reason to ask if we're exclusive? • Dating	3921	43
Why am I not successful? • Ask a Dating Expert	340	28
Being blown off, or something else? • Dating	442	16
Is Your Gut Leading - or Misleading You? • Dating	564	11
51917 more topics in our discussion boards. Join the conversation!

“It's important to understand the way a site works. Rigidly assuming / insisting that eH works likes all the others you're used to isn't utilizing the site functions to your best advantage. No.... ... ” – Wiseman2

Join the “First contact on eHarmony, smile, questions, email?” discussion

“ If you have yet to meet, you don't know him or whether you two will form a connection. Connections formed over e-mail tend to be fantasies. You will see this echoed over and over by experienced ... ” – shapeShifter79

Join the “How do i recoonect with him again?” discussion

“ Then it's a bit premature to worry about being friend-zoned. The first step is to go out on dates! What specific steps did you try? How many women did you ask out in person? Did you buy a ... ” – shapeShifter79

Join the “For women to answer: How to avoid the friend zone” discussion

“ This is an old thread. She asked this in 2010. By now they are likely very exclusive or very over. ” – shapeShifter79

Join the “is there a reason to ask if we're exclusive?” discussion

“ I'm sure he wouldn't get that. And I can't be sure that was the actual message. But it sems kind of likely to me.” – boomer_gal

Join the “Why am I not successful?” discussion

“Hi eccemuliere and welcome to eHA.On an internet forum like eHA, you're going to get a wide variety of responses; some you'll like and some you won't. It's best to focus on the ones that speak to ... ” – Sassafras54

Join the “Being blown off, or something else?” discussion

“ Although I have ignored my gut at times, in hindsight it's always been right, in terms of recognizing bad choices. QUOTE] But once we realize our past mistakes, we can use our reason to clue us ... ” – eccemuliere

Join the “Is Your Gut Leading - or Misleading You?” discussion

All times are GMT -8. The time now is 3:33pm.

Looking for a Great Relationship?

Get started now. Fill out this form and take the questionnaire to receive your matches.

First Name:

I'm a:

seeking

Postal Code:

Country:

Email:

Confirm Email:

Password:

Must be at least 5 characters

How did you hear about us?

Featured Groups

Completely Stupid Conversations

Do you have something completely stupid to talk about? Come here. Talk. It's a simple two step process. Please have a good sense of humor about all this. It is good for the heart.
eHarmony Advice Member Dating Journals

A place to chronicle the ups and downs of your dating life, to cheer on your friends (and get cheered on).

These Readers Want Your Advice!

"No head, no shirt, no service!"
"Picture of his dead wife in the bedroom"
"The lost art of conversation..."

Connect with Advice Members

tangochef

"Interests: Argentine Tango, Cooking, Travelling, Tennis, Biking, Performance Arts, Reading"View profile
faraday

"Interests: Gardening, Cooking, Baking, The Gym, Going For Walks With My Daughter, Bubble Baths, Red Wine, Dark Beer, Funny Stories And Quirky Movies." View profile

Why I Want to See Health Insurance Reform Passed

Looking for a Great Relationship?

Latest on our Dating Advice Discussion Boards

Looking for a Great Relationship?

Related Articles

Featured Groups

Completely Stupid Conversations

eHarmony Advice Member Dating Journals

These Readers Want Your Advice!

Connect with Advice Members

tangochef

faraday

Dating Advice

Off Topic