bigfincat is offline bigfincat Post #11  December 5,2009, 5:56pm
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[quote=Can_I_just_be_Jo;814932]This is just my feelings but I believe the idea that all men are created equal means that all people under the system have an equal chance of being successful. At the time in England you had no chance of acquiring wealth despite hard work, intelligence, or any other inborn attributes. Like being able to spell.
 
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acelticsteve is offline acelticsteve Post #12  December 5,2009, 8:39pm

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at one time if your father was a farmer, guess what you would be. and that is part of it for shoure.
 
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Can_I_just_be_Jo is offline Can_I_just_be_Jo Post #13  December 7,2009, 12:23pm

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bigfincat wrote :
I would NOT take a pay that was gained in an unfair way. Absolutely not.

If I am making a great deal of money then so are the people that aid me in doing so.

There is no way that I would be very rich while some of my full-time employees are taking home less than $1000 per MONTH. Not going to happen.

I will never take as much money as I can get away with. That is flat out greed.
I didn't mean it that way. Most people think like you, I do as well. It is just the people I hear yelling the loudest are the kind of people who would take the money and run.

I know a lot of CEOs and have great respect for them. The main reason is they did not make their money off the backs of their employees but with the help of their employees and they will never forget that. They voluntarily take cuts to their own wages before their employees. Good people are out there, I guess because I know them it makes me sad that people lump them all together.
 
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Can_I_just_be_Jo is offline Can_I_just_be_Jo Post #14  December 7,2009, 12:23pm

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acelticsteve wrote :
at one time if your father was a farmer, guess what you would be. and that is part of it for shoure.
Actually wine makers but if you want to call it farming go right ahead.
 
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hazmat is offline hazmat Post #15  December 7,2009, 3:31pm
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acelticsteve wrote :
yes I have heard about spell check. I have not figured out how it works here. it is a resuls of a bad desion that I made in graid school. Now I have one for you ab hominem. it is using a logic that attacts your opponit and not his argument. Are you saying that my opinions are less valid becuse I can't spell? (they are harder to express)do you think you out rank me becuse I can't spell? That would be like concluding that every on in aminal rescue is a Hundo, or people from GA are redneck raceist, not worthy of my time or trubble to give them a heaing. It is a low trick to acvoid the issue, the evolutionist use it to davoid questions into the validy of there sicence, as do the the Globle worming people, polations use it to get elected (is is called mud slinging or a smear campaine). If you wis to make a statment about the topic It will be welcome, but if you wish to attact me do it on my profile.
For your learning, there were 250 "gentlman " who landec at James town. In 1600 a gentlman was a kight or squire who lorded it over there manors. These 250 men (there no woman) put John Smith in chains for being uppity. 20 years later a group of people settlen in Mass. who were sick and tired of being throwen in jail by the Gentry. This is the root couse of the Civle War. Your side lost, are you willing to join the rest of the country or do you want keep it divided?

I'm sure you're a perfectly nice guy and I appreciate that you want to have a meaningful discussion here. But...when I can't even understand your argument because i'm trying so hard to decipher the spelling, something needed to be said. Everyone makes the occasional mistake, but this is like trying to read another language. From what i've been able to pick up, you seem intelligent, it just doesn't come through very well because of the horrid spelling.

It wasn't meant as an attack, (massacre of the English language does make me grumpy though) more of a heads up. In this format, spelling and grammar are really one of the only ways to evaluate a person. Why would people engage you in a meaningful discussion or ask for advice, if they thought (by your spelling and grammar) that you were unintelligent ?
 
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Jacquesne is offline Jacquesne Post #16  December 7,2009, 10:52pm
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acelticsteve wrote :
yes I have heard about spell check. I have not figured out how it works here. it is a resuls of a bad desion that I made in graid school. Now I have one for you ab hominem. it is using a logic that attacts your opponit and not his argument. Are you saying that my opinions are less valid becuse I can't spell? (they are harder to express)do you think you out rank me becuse I can't spell? That would be like concluding that every on in aminal rescue is a Hundo, or people from GA are redneck raceist, not worthy of my time or trubble to give them a heaing. It is a low trick to acvoid the issue, the evolutionist use it to davoid questions into the validy of there sicence, as do the the Globle worming people, polations use it to get elected (is is called mud slinging or a smear campaine). If you wis to make a statment about the topic It will be welcome, but if you wish to attact me do it on my profile.
For your learning, there were 250 "gentlman " who landec at James town. In 1600 a gentlman was a kight or squire who lorded it over there manors. These 250 men (there no woman) put John Smith in chains for being uppity. 20 years later a group of people settlen in Mass. who were sick and tired of being throwen in jail by the Gentry. This is the root couse of the Civle War. Your side lost, are you willing to join the rest of the country or do you want keep it divided?
Firefox has a built in spell checker. Right click any words that are underlined with a red line.

I'm somewhat curious about how you spelled hominem correctly but not ad as in ad hominem =). You are correct, however, that spelling does not indicate intelligence (only education). Basic spelling, especially when so easily corrected by spellcheck or even basic proofreading, does help.

I have heard the argument before that people have trouble with spelling and I'm not insensitive to it but let's be a little honest here. Read the following words...aminal, Hundo, acvoid, wis, and evolutionist. The first four are not spelled phonetically; they are caused by quick typing and not glancing back to see if the word makes sense. I'm fairly certain you do not pronounce any of these words the way they were spelled and "wis" instead of "wish" is simply caused by leaving out a letter, not by lack of knowledge of the correct spelling. I mentioned evolutionist because it was spelled correctly when something as simple as "avoid" had a random letter that has nothing to do with the word added.

You can argue that lack of spelling skills do not degrade your argument and this is true. But don't insult our intelligence by claiming that mistyping is caused by lack of schooling or a learning disorder. I'm quite confident that you know very well that "wish" is not spelled "wis" and had you taken a few moments to glance at the word you had just written this would have been very clear.

I'm not telling you to fix your spelling but I am going to say that claiming you are unable to do anything about it is false. What you are telling people is not so much that you are unintelligent but that you don't care. This makes it difficult to take your argument seriously because if you don't care about it why should we? Again, don't take this as a personal attack...spelling is not that important and I'm more than willing to debate with someone regardless of how much I want to rewrite everything they wrote. But please don't try to defend it by pretending it's a racial or religious prerogative to type quickly without caring if the words have all their letters or extra ones for no reason.

I will, however, directly challenge everything you wrote after "For your learning." There were 500 men who landed at Jamestown, not 250. John Smith was not imprisoned by these men but by Powhatan Native Americans and later freed. He was the leader of the Jamestown colony and the only other time he was captured was by French pirates, whom he escaped from, and retired in England. The pilgrims settled in Massachusetts 12 years after the landing at Jamestown, not 20, and none of that had anything to do with the Civil War 241 years later which was fought over states' rights and all these events happened long before there even were states. I have no idea what you mean by "your side lost," are you implying that hazmat fought in the Civil War? And these things have nothing to do with your spelling.

There is a difference between attacking a person and attacking what a person says. I agree that disregarding someone purely because of spelling is a mistake as it is not easy for all people. But that doesn't mean you have free reign to say whatever you wish without anyone arguing back.

I would seriously challenge your historical facts on this topic. I'm not following your logic at all. What does the Civil War have to do with a quote from a document written 85 years before it? How does Jamestown and New England relate to this? It seems you have made some serious leaps in logic here and I'm missing the context.

I'd highly recommend taking a bit of time to work out your argument. The spelling I can interpret. It's the logic I'm having difficulty with. I'm looking forward to your response!

Jacquesne
 
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acelticsteve is offline acelticsteve Post #17  December 9,2009, 6:31pm

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I like that big head thing, I think it summs it up nicely. I think that some of the "inborn inequitys" are just differences. If I have one of these and complain that it is unfair then I hurt my self. hay the best storys are about people who over come, who wants to read a story "rich boy boy is born with $1,000,000 and dies with the same and nothing changes? I thinnk that a lot of the "bottum feeders" are being used for some purpous. personelly I am tired of the waa waa boo hoo I don't care if it a rich amn complaining about taxes or a bum who has been in and out of 100 rescue missions and will not take advantage of the help offered.
 
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acelticsteve is offline acelticsteve Post #18  December 11,2009, 3:39pm

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Your points on the spelling are good points and I well take them in consideration. I am going to try something else; I will put it on my word processer and paste it on the post to see if that helps.
About the states right that is the southern side of the story, the slavery is the northern story. Some people clime that the slavery issue is a re right of history that happened in the ’60 but it was the story that we were taught in the North in the ’50 and before. The only “right” that I know of was the right to keep slaves. I have also heard that tariff and taxes were part of it but I have never seen where the south walked out of Congress because of that, but have on the account of slavery. I suggest that you watch the movie Gettysburg, between all the fighting they explore all the excuse and rational behind the war. Also The coming furry a book that covers from about January 1861 to the bombing of Fort Sumter it is enlightening. However, I think we will be better off if we all recognize that there are two different points of view to on this and put it where it need to be and that is in the past. I have ran into a lot of people who in there harts are still fighting that war, especially in the North Florida and South Georgia some of what I said was “you are from Georgia, therefore you are a red neck, why should I listen to you. “ Of course it is riddled with bad logic and in generally insulting.
Now about the James town and Plymouth thing, I researched it because of this Confederate flag is heritage thing. It has nothing to do with my heritage besides I had an ancestor in the Union Army. Anyway I was curious; I knew that before the war that any attack on slavery was seen as an attack on the southern way of life, I did not understand why. And no one can or ever has explained it to me. So I followed the trail back as far as I could and found myself at Hampton Court in March, 1604. James had been on the throne only a few months and was going to explain his religious policy, and what he wanted to do about the dissenters in the English Church. The Catholics were hoping for some relief from the restrictions that they were under. His answer was “There will be only one Bible, one prayer book, and one order of service in my England. “ Three things happened, a group of Catholics hired Guy Fawkes to blow up Parliament, some separatist from central England went to the Netherlands, and England Got a new Bible. If you pick up most KJV Bibles you might find “This Bible is authorized to be read in churches, and homes …” In 1611, when the work was completed, that it was the only Bible allowed. If you read another, went to a different church then the Church of England, or did not go to church at all, you could be arrested, and many were. Now that is what I call shoveling a religion down peoples throat. Completely unrelated to this the London Company or Virginia Company was formed to send an expedition to the Americans and settle. It might be noted here that James would not allow anyone to go to the James town settlement unless there were a member in good standing of the Church of England. About 20 years later the bunch from Netherlands made their way over. Personally I think that is why they ended up where they did.
If we compare the people who went over we find that: 240 gentlemen, 24 craftman, 16 labors went to James Town. In 1600 a gentleman was of the rank of Knight or squire, the lowest rank of the aristocracy. This bunch were most likely were 2nd and 3rd sons who would not inherit nether land or titles, their choices were to join the army, become a priest, live off big brother , or go adventuring, They choice the last. These men were very class conscious. They put John Smith in chains for being “Uppity”.
The Plymouth settlers were mostly farmers, tradesmen, and craftsmen on the social ladder of England they were on the bottom. They cane for religious freedom they came because they were tired of being thrown in jail. When they left for Holland the women and children were on the ship, the men had not yet boarded the kings men arrived and arrested all the men it took negotiation to get them freed. Nothing was “beneath them”.
They tried to copy what they had in England with large estates. The manor or estates in England were huge, in James town they developed plantations how they went from hindered to plantations, I don’t know.
Plymouth they derived up the land and each person worked their own. James Town they needed a lot of people to work them. These were for a long time supplied by England in the form of indentured servants, who 50% died in their first year, also prisoners, and then slaves.
In James town they sought for a cash crop and landed on tobacco, a crop that depletes the soil fast. In Plymouth they diversified, they hunted and fished soon they were sending dried fish, meat, furs and lumber back to England. They payed off their debt, James town were taken over by the Crown.
By now the die was set what was started at James town spared across the south and what started at Plymouth spared across the north. The Dutch had New York until the English took it from them, the Dutch were business men and see what NY is. Many groups came over for various reasons most searching for religious freedom, The Quakers, Catholics, puritans. The puritans brought with them in their religion a distain for the fancy, factions. When they made money they put it back into their business. In the south the gentry were more apt to spend it on fancy close, horses, a bigger house. So when it got closer to the Civil war they complained that the north was richer then they. The southern aristocrat sent his son to a military school or to a privet school, anyone else was lucky to get past 3rd grade. In New England they started public schools. In the early days the Bible was used as a reader. The southern gentleman distained the trades, and merchandising, the only thing proper was plantations. In the north people had no such reservations, they were presents where they came from any thing was a promotion. They harnessed the rivers to drive mills the ground grain, manufactured future wove cloth and made clothing. In the south, true to their heritage, they raised cotton and sold it north, Often without removing the seeds. The more you do to a commodity the more you can sell it for. If 100 gallons of water a minute falls 10 feet it produces so much power, this is true no matter where it is. The south complained about how the government catered to the north, when it was their choice. The coal that was dug up in what is now West Virginia and Pennsylvania could have gone south to plants as well north.
And all this time they maintained what they started at James town with their gentlemen are better than everyone else. When the war came not one state the left had a referendum, it was done by convention or the legislators voted it in. in many states in the south you could not vote unless you owned land. For the southern airastocy to maintain power he needed some one to have power over. And so it goes down the line and at the bottom was the slave, without the slave the whole thing crumbled. Well at least that is my theory. The states’ rights was that the states would control the federal government by controlling the senate, this was why when a northern state came in a slave state came in at the same time, Until California came in. The main thing that came out of the war was the abolition of slavery, the big plantations were returned to their owners who share cropped them. Senators were appointed by the legislators until the 17 amendment was passed years later. It seems to me that with two so different sucitys tring to make up one country they will clash sooner or later. and that is what happened.

 
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