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Politics Left? Right? Liberal? Conservative? How does politics and the social values you hold affect dating and relationships?

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graceventually graceventually is offline
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graceventually is getting ready for the Nov. 28 wedding, and so won't be posting much!

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"I'm just happy it doesn't work the way you describe. I'm glad I can make moral decisions without a precedent or preestablished response in place."

Does anyone really do that, Jaquesne? Really?
We all learn our morals from somewhere. Even if we reject some of what we've been taught by our parents, it simply means we've chosen to follow a different standard that we've learned of elsewhere. I seriously doubt that you've invented a whole new system of ethics?
- November 3rd, 2009, 08:53 am
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Jacquesne Jacquesne is offline
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That's the point, it's a system. Not a list. There's a difference.

Here's an example. In the state of Florida it is illegal to shower while naked. My parents taught me that obeying the law was a "good" moral, and society generally agrees that following the law is "right." Yet I know breaking this law does not break any of my morals. Why? Did someone tell me "Oh, no, showering while naked isn't really bad!"?

No. I knew it wasn't a bad thing immediately upon reading about the law. My ethics are an interpretation, not the letter of the law. And each person has their own interpretation.

That is why morals are gray, not black-and-white. If precedent were the only basis of morality then the same thing would be wrong in all situations. To use my example earlier of "Thou shalt not kill" if that were the law I'd been taught I would know that killing in self-defense or in service of my country is wrong and not do it. But I know that self-defense and wartime killing is not wrong. Why? Because society tells me it's OK then?

Again, no. Because I understand "killing" to be "murder" and "murder" to be "unnecessary killing". Yet even with that logic I could say certain types of murder are necessary. A drunk driver kills my family so I kill him "so he can't kill anyone else." That fits the "necessary" killing criteria, right? Yet I still know it's wrong. Why? Did my parents teach me all these exceptions, all these individual situations that determine the appropriate response in all situations?

I'm not saying I've invented a new system but that I use the one most people use; their own. People can and do make ethical decisions without any previous knowledge of that particular situation. They can do that if they understand the meaning of the ethics and not simply the letter.

So yes, I do that. There is reason behind decisions to accept certain moral systems. Why did I choose to accept my mother's perspective that abortion is wrong and not my father's that it is right? Why did I choose to accept my father's perspective that premarital sex is right and not my mother's where it is wrong?

In face of competing moral systems we choose. That choice is typically not random. And it's the driving force behind that choice that I'm talking about when I talk about ethics. There's an underlying system in place that decides which rule to follow and it is that system which is unique and not bound by the letter of the rules and is not a simple list of things you can teach your children.

Does that make more sense?

Jacquesne
- November 3rd, 2009, 10:53 am
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hazmat hazmat is offline
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We do learn our morals and sense of right and wrong as we travel through life. Most often they come from parents, family, and friends at an early age. Children are (or used to be) thought of as innocent and good.

The thing most shocking to me is not the rape and degradation of this poor girl, because things like that have been going on for centuries. What disgusts and disappoints me most is that so many young people in this situation, (up to 20) weren't taught that this was wrong, or that the strong should protect the weak. These twerps standing around laughing, participating, and taking pictures of this vile act are supposed to be the future of our country. Would they stand by if it were their sister or mother ? And what kind of parents would raise such scum ? My Dad would have pounded me and been disappointed for life...and rightly so.
- November 3rd, 2009, 12:28 pm
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hummingbird2009 hummingbird2009 is offline
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Great post, yet again, Emme. *1000
- November 3rd, 2009, 07:44 pm
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hummingbird2009 hummingbird2009 is offline
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You're right, Hazmat. I've seen that also.
- November 3rd, 2009, 07:46 pm
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I'm just musing here.

I think that most people do not react on instinct. I think their initial feeling when witnessing violence or in a dangerous situation is the fight or flight response (instinct), but their reaction and subsequent action is based (usually) on judgement, not instinct.

for example, if you witness a act of violence, your first instinct is to either call 911, jump into the fray or run to protect yourself. but then you think, oh, someone else might have called 911, or I'm not getting involved, it's none of my business anyway, etc, etc. that's judgement.

or, when a guy offers to walk you and your groceries to the car, and your instinct screams NO, but your judgement comes in and tells you that you live in a safe neighborhood, and he's so polite and well dressed, what could happen?

i tend to think that people who have not lived thru real violence or danger have lost their ability to rely on instinct. humans in general have lost it since we stopped being stalked by sabertooth tigers, and rely instead on false comforts like google and backround checks and have been made soft by easy living and gated communitys.

anyone from NJ remembers the Glen ridge rape case, where several upstanding jocks from an affulent community r.a.ped a mentally impaired girl for hours in a basement. with a baseball bat.

this jury- made up of community members- gave most of these preverts probation. i think the longest sentence was 6 years, but even that was reduced.

the message here is that you cannot count on your fellow citizens for protection OR justice. only yourself.
- November 3rd, 2009, 09:24 pm
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dnnmllr dnnmllr is offline
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dnnmllr "Steady my feet in accord with your promise, Let not iniquity lead me"...

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Jacquesne wrote :
Except in your example there aren't a bunch of other people urging you to leave. Personal moral decisions are very different from mob mentality. A single person who comes on one person getting raped by one other person is much more likely to act than in the situation described by the original post. Now the entire moral responsibility is clearly their own.

Morality is not a checklist of "good" and "bad." My morality, for instance, is very different from that of my parents. They might tell me, for instance, that bikinis are too revealing and inappropriate behavior. I disagree; I believe that it's a person's own decisions and perspective that determine the morality of it and find the female form beautiful and covering it up because it's "dirty" to be insulting. I didn't learn that from a classroom or another person, even if others share that opinion; I reasoned it based on my own moral code. I don't believe in "Ten Commandments" morality (the idea that there is a comprehensive list of what is "bad"). After all it's a bit silly for a Marine to accept "Thou shalt not kill" at face value.

If we could simply give our kids a list of good and bad and then have them behave the right way it would be so much easier. Unfortunately it doesn't work like that.

I think there's a reason that definition you use on "morality" uses "morals" as the primary noun to describe it. What "morals" are is left unsaid because it's too complex for a simple dictionary definition.

I'm just happy it doesn't work the way you describe. I'm glad I can make moral decisions without a precedent or preestablished response in place.

I hope that makes sense.

Jacquesne
jacquesne.....you have taken what I have said out of its intended context so I am going to state my positive intent.

You chose, as a "poor" example (meaning what you believe is not morality) of morality, your parents and their thought to you on what clothing you should wear. I will use my own example of what is not morality: How one holds a fork at the dinner table. This is not morality.....it is manners.

If you need a good example of morality, or moral obligation, please see: harvardjustice.org. I find this information useful. (i.e. A lead instructor "teaches" an undergraduate class on morality, moral obligation, et cetera.....through the "learning" process.)

(Again, thank you mom for loving me enough to teach me "right" from "wrong". I honor you.)

God bless you.
- November 5th, 2009, 12:43 pm
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dnnmllr dnnmllr is offline
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dnnmllr "Steady my feet in accord with your promise, Let not iniquity lead me"...

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My hope is that I have given, through dialogue in this thread, an example of what "good" morality is.....and not "poor" morality (please reference my posts).

(Morality is not)..... how one holds a fork, or what is on a (shopping) "list", rather, see definition.

Main Entry: mo·ral·i·ty Pronunciation: \mə-ˈra-lə-tē, mȯ-\Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural mo·ral·i·ties
Date: 14th century 1 a : a moral discourse, statement, or lesson b : a literary or other imaginative work teaching a moral lesson 2 a : a doctrine or system of moral conduct b plural : particular moral principles or rules of conduct
3 : conformity to ideals of right human conduct 4 : moral conduct : virtue

There is a really good resource available ,to anyone who is interested, through Harvard University where morality is "taught" (through discussion among undergraduates) by a tenured instructor and what is "learned" in the process.

Note: Main Entry: sys·tem Pronunciation: \ˈsis-təm\Function: noun
Etymology: Late Latin systemat-, systema, from Greek systēmat-, systēma, from synistanai to combine, from syn- + histanai to cause to stand — more at stand Date: 1603

1 : a regularly interacting or interdependent group of items forming a unified whole : as a (1) : a group of interacting bodies under the influence of related forces (2) : an assemblage of substances that is in or tends to equilibrium b (1) : a group of body organs that together perform one or more vital functions (2) : the body considered as a functional unit c : a group of related natural objects or forces d : a group of devices or artificial objects or an organization forming a network especially for distributing something or serving a common purpose e : a major division of rocks usually larger than a series and including all formed during a period or era f : a form of social, economic, or political organization or practice
2 : an organized set of doctrines, ideas, or principles usually intended to explain the arrangement or working of a systematic whole 3 a : an organized or established procedure b : a manner of classifying, symbolizing, or schematizing
4 : harmonious arrangement or pattern : order
5 : an organized society or social situation regarded as stultifying or oppressive : establishment 2 —usually used with the synonyms see method— sys·tem·less \-ləs\ adjective

Please note: If you are not sure of what I am communicating then please ask me to clarify, or "state my positive intent". I do not care for those that misrepresent what I have written because of their misunderstanding of what I say. Thanks in advance.

I wish all threaders well.
Last edited by dnnmllr; November 5th, 2009 at 01:56 pm. Reason: My note of thanks and gratitude for this opportunity to be me.
- November 5th, 2009, 01:53 pm
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6dle899 6dle899 is offline
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6dle899 Losing faith in humanity. One person at a time.

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Being from San Francisco and taking my Mercedes sometimes to this very exact area to visit a Mercedes tuner whose shop is near 23rd street- I personally am familiar with the very exact area , where this happened, and it is without doubt the worst slum anywhere in Northern California, and has the murder statistics to prove it.


It is a 3rd world hell hole, to me even worse than the bad neighborhoods in Lima Peru that I have seen.


The young males, mostly black and latino, would as soon KILL you for your wallet, as look at you.

Friend of mine knew a guy that owned rental properties there, and when he went to collect the rent he always took a gun..


Those people there that are young and male are a bunch of wild animals.

Violence and the threat of it is the only language they understand.

The IRON TRIANGLE of Richmond CA is a prison without walls.

Enter at your own risk.

Scary dangerous place to be.
- November 5th, 2009, 03:40 pm
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hazmat hazmat is offline
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Thanks for the info on that area 6dle899. Note to self...no unarmed vacations there.
- November 6th, 2009, 05:09 pm
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