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littlebluemonkeymind littlebluemonkeymind is offline
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Can_I_just_be_Jo wrote :
My work machine is giving me trouble. Hopefully I can post this.

Sorry if I come off mean. My intent was to explain that this does happen. I have seen good people do it. I would have done it had I not known about it once. I have traveled many roads probably some you haven't. Doesn't make me better or worse than you. You haven't traveled in the shoes of those kids. They were wrong but to change future behavior we have to figure out why. What I stated is a part of it, however small.
Sorry, but when someone chooses to do this...they cease to be good people. I can understand not stopping for someone broken down on the side of the road or not jumping into a brawl to break things up. However, 911 is easy and almost universally accessible.

And yes, brutality might be human nature. Every evidence points to it. Still, the urge to rise above that brutality is also part of human nature. I think part of the original question is, when did the tide turn from the majority of people rising above to the more currently common scenario of people sinking to the lowest common demoninator - brutality and indifference.

I think it has nothing to do with family values. I think it has everything to do with personal accountability. I also think anyone who stands by while this kind of thing goes on is just as guilty as the people committing the actual crime. They either learned that brutality and indifference from someone or they failed to learn accountability from someone.

As for roads not traveled and walking in the shoes of those kids, I can tell you that I have known people who have every reason in the world to be brutal and indifferent and are not. Were not as children. Are not as adults. What makes them different? I don't know. Perhaps it's nothing more than the courage to choose the right thing more often than not, regardless of the consequences to themselves. Just as your experiences are your own and I cannot know them, your voice in your posts here tends to be a bit condescending, which disregards and discounts others' experiences.

Life is all about choice and consequences. If parents aren't teaching children that, we can hardly be surprised when they choose the path of least resistance.
Last edited by littlebluemonkeymind; October 31st, 2009 at 04:55 pm. Reason: My second-ever post in poltics. I'm blaming Haz and Notyet for posting sensible things I feel compelled to agree with.
- October 31st, 2009, 04:30 pm
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littlebluemonkeymind littlebluemonkeymind is offline
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hazmat wrote :
It may be human nature for most to stand in stunned disbelief, fear, or to run with the mob, but not all.

If I don't understand the behavior, it's because it's not in my nature.
Which is why we love you, Haz.
- October 31st, 2009, 04:36 pm
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peg099 peg099 is offline
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DancingFool wrote :
As unpalatable as this may be, Can_I_Just_be_Jo is correct when saying that this is pure human nature and nothing has changed in that respect since the beginning of time.

There have actually been studies done about this sort of a thing, and those studies invariably produce the same results - the larger the crowd of peole watching someone being attacked, the less likely anyone will move a single finger to help. Basically the crowd psychology becomes (1) self preservation of I don't want to get caught up in this and (2) looking at others not doing anything, an assumption that someone else has already done something about this as in calling for help or police or whatever. Crowd mentally is triggered and personal responsibility is suppressed.

On the other hand, if you only have one or two witnesses, the chances of them actually stepping in are huge. There is no mob mentallity going on and the mind reacts by looking around and realizing that they are personally responsible for action/prevention - there is nobody else. In other words personal responsibility gets triggered and therefore action gets triggered as well.
It's not so much 'mob mentality' as it 'diffusion of responsibility.' The more people there are witnessing an event, the more likely that individuals are going to assume others have called for help - because there are so many others. Mob mentality would refer to people joining in as opposed to standing by idly.

But I agree with what others have said - it ultimately comes down to choice and peronal responsibility. I'd much rather have the cops called 15 times in a situation like that than not at all.
- October 31st, 2009, 08:11 pm
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hazmat hazmat is offline
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Thanks Gals. You sure know how to flatter a guy.
- October 31st, 2009, 10:35 pm
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Emme Emme is offline
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hazmat wrote :
Thanks Gals. You sure know how to flatter a guy.
Not me. I still think you're old. Except I'm even older. I'm thinking I should just go cougar and be done with it.
- November 1st, 2009, 06:17 am
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graceventually graceventually is offline
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LoL, Emme.

Well said, haz.
- November 2nd, 2009, 07:19 am
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Jacquesne Jacquesne is offline
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I know from personal experience as well (although not as dramatic) that most people freeze up in unusual (to use a generalized term) situations. One time at PT one of the kids had some sort of medical attack and collapsed, convulsing, to the ground after doing one max set of pull-ups (well after, he was just standing there). Myself and one other guy there immediately rushed in and I told a nearby guy to call 911.

I would like to say it's a "will to act" but I don't know if that's what it was. The other guy and myself were both leading the PT session as senior members and thus had a "leadership" position. Perhaps being responsible made me move to action more quickly. The other thing is that I've been trained by the military to respond to medical situations in a limited capacity. When you have training to act your body often responds that way when under stress. My "You, call 911" was almost exactly the same as "You, call the corpsman" I've been trained to do. And the reason you pick a specific person is because if you say "Somebody call !" everyone will stand around waiting for someone else to do it. You have to be specific.

Parties can get pretty crazy. I don't know the situation they were in but I've been at parties where people being naked or having sex in the middle of everyone isn't that uncommon. Alcohol clouds the judgment and if you don't know the situation your first instinct is not to interfere.

I'm not saying their behavior was in any way "normal." I happen to make sure my friends are the kind of people who would stop such behavior as it happened (which unfortunately we've had to do). But I don't know if it's entirely a matter of morality.

Either way I seriously doubt this is something we "got to the point of." This idea that the past had "better morals" where this sort of thing didn't happen is frankly an illusion. We just didn't have as much media coverage of such things. It was less known. I won't get into the media violence fetish.

In my opinion the trick is not to try and fix the world. Fix yourselves and those around you. Make a difference in your environment and be the example. Trying to do too much is sometimes worse than doing nothing at all. I suppose those claims need some explanation and will get misinterpreted but I'll deal with that later =).

Jacquesne
- November 2nd, 2009, 12:02 pm
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dnnmllr dnnmllr is offline
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Jacquesne wrote :
I know from personal experience as well (although not as dramatic) that most people freeze up in unusual (to use a generalized term) situations. One time at PT one of the kids had some sort of medical attack and collapsed, convulsing, to the ground after doing one max set of pull-ups (well after, he was just standing there). Myself and one other guy there immediately rushed in and I told a nearby guy to call 911.

I would like to say it's a "will to act" but I don't know if that's what it was. The other guy and myself were both leading the PT session as senior members and thus had a "leadership" position. Perhaps being responsible made me move to action more quickly. The other thing is that I've been trained by the military to respond to medical situations in a limited capacity. When you have training to act your body often responds that way when under stress. My "You, call 911" was almost exactly the same as "You, call the corpsman" I've been trained to do. And the reason you pick a specific person is because if you say "Somebody call !" everyone will stand around waiting for someone else to do it. You have to be specific.

Parties can get pretty crazy. I don't know the situation they were in but I've been at parties where people being naked or having sex in the middle of everyone isn't that uncommon. Alcohol clouds the judgment and if you don't know the situation your first instinct is not to interfere.

I'm not saying their behavior was in any way "normal." I happen to make sure my friends are the kind of people who would stop such behavior as it happened (which unfortunately we've had to do). But I don't know if it's entirely a matter of morality.

Either way I seriously doubt this is something we "got to the point of." This idea that the past had "better morals" where this sort of thing didn't happen is frankly an illusion. We just didn't have as much media coverage of such things. It was less known. I won't get into the media violence fetish.

In my opinion the trick is not to try and fix the world. Fix yourselves and those around you. Make a difference in your environment and be the example. Trying to do too much is sometimes worse than doing nothing at all. I suppose those claims need some explanation and will get misinterpreted but I'll deal with that later =).

Jacquesne
Example: Thank God I have never injured a person by striking them with a vehicle. I am told the "tendency" is to "run" (i.e. "hit-and-run.") I "know" not to do this.....leave the scene of an accident. Thank you, Mom, for loving me enough to teach me "right" from "wrong". I honor you.

(Note: Main Entry: mo·ral·i·ty Pronunciation: \mə-ˈra-lə-tē, mȯ-\Function: noun Inflected Form(s): plural mo·ral·i·ties Date: 14th century 1 a : a moral discourse, statement, or lesson b : a literary or other imaginative work teaching a moral lesson 2 a : a doctrine or system of moral conduct b plural : particular moral principles or rules of conduct 3 : conformity to ideals of right human conduct 4 : moral conduct : virtue

May I never be put to the test. I wish you well.
Last edited by dnnmllr; November 2nd, 2009 at 01:03 pm. Reason: insert point of clarification
- November 2nd, 2009, 12:31 pm
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Jacquesne Jacquesne is offline
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Except in your example there aren't a bunch of other people urging you to leave. Personal moral decisions are very different from mob mentality. A single person who comes on one person getting raped by one other person is much more likely to act than in the situation described by the original post. Now the entire moral responsibility is clearly their own.

Morality is not a checklist of "good" and "bad." My morality, for instance, is very different from that of my parents. They might tell me, for instance, that bikinis are too revealing and inappropriate behavior. I disagree; I believe that it's a person's own decisions and perspective that determine the morality of it and find the female form beautiful and covering it up because it's "dirty" to be insulting. I didn't learn that from a classroom or another person, even if others share that opinion; I reasoned it based on my own moral code. I don't believe in "Ten Commandments" morality (the idea that there is a comprehensive list of what is "bad"). After all it's a bit silly for a Marine to accept "Thou shalt not kill" at face value.

If we could simply give our kids a list of good and bad and then have them behave the right way it would be so much easier. Unfortunately it doesn't work like that.

I think there's a reason that definition you use on "morality" uses "morals" as the primary noun to describe it. What "morals" are is left unsaid because it's too complex for a simple dictionary definition.

I'm just happy it doesn't work the way you describe. I'm glad I can make moral decisions without a precedent or preestablished response in place.

I hope that makes sense.

Jacquesne
- November 2nd, 2009, 01:32 pm
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Can_I_just_be_Jo wrote :
God folks clearly you don't understand psychology. It is actually human nature to look to others for guidence in a situation. If no one is reacting your mind assumes there is nothing to react to. It is sad but true. Chances are in the same situation you would react the same way. Doesn't make you a bad person, just human.

Unfortunately people also look to TV. While nearly every person you ask will tell you that they do not allow advertising to effect their decisions, yet advertisers pay millions to tens of millions of dollars for a 30 second advertising spot on TV. They KNOW that they can effect your buying decisions enough to pay for the ad plus some. If that is what 30 seconds can do, think about what a couple hours of TV can do.
Today's TV makes such acts seem common / not such a bad thing (de-sensitizes).
- November 2nd, 2009, 01:53 pm
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