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brneyedangel wrote :
They're having fun?? She was intoxicated so how is she going to scream for help clearly? And trust me, you aren't thinking this way when you are being assaulted, no matter what the self-defense gurus or psychology books say. It isn't human nature to stand and watch someone get raped, and kids today have no problem calling each other on their lies and BS...unless, of course, they're involved somehow. And yes, I'm very well aware of how I'll react in this situation as I am sure others are, as well. I WILL call 911, not because it's my job, but because it's the right thing to do and I'm not an ostrich. Careful with those blanket statements when you do not know the road we've traveled, please.
My work machine is giving me trouble. Hopefully I can post this.

Sorry if I come off mean. My intent was to explain that this does happen. I have seen good people do it. I would have done it had I not known about it once. I have traveled many roads probably some you haven't. Doesn't make me better or worse than you. You haven't traveled in the shoes of those kids. They were wrong but to change future behavior we have to figure out why. What I stated is a part of it, however small.
- October 30th, 2009, 11:26 am
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As unpalatable as this may be, Can_I_Just_be_Jo is correct when saying that this is pure human nature and nothing has changed in that respect since the beginning of time.

There have actually been studies done about this sort of a thing, and those studies invariably produce the same results - the larger the crowd of peole watching someone being attacked, the less likely anyone will move a single finger to help. Basically the crowd psychology becomes (1) self preservation of I don't want to get caught up in this and (2) looking at others not doing anything, an assumption that someone else has already done something about this as in calling for help or police or whatever. Crowd mentally is triggered and personal responsibility is suppressed.

On the other hand, if you only have one or two witnesses, the chances of them actually stepping in are huge. There is no mob mentallity going on and the mind reacts by looking around and realizing that they are personally responsible for action/prevention - there is nobody else. In other words personal responsibility gets triggered and therefore action gets triggered as well.

Perhaps a more familiar and less emotional topic on this is riots. Roughly 99% of people participating in the riot and getting pulled into it have never before in their entire life broken the law, thrown a rock, looted and done anything at all violent and will never do it again. In fact they probably won't even be able to explain or rationalize what possesed them. So often in those cases the riot will begin with just one or two rowdy charismatic people and will spread through the crowd like an infectious disease with lightning speed. Sadly what happened with the girl is the same type of mob mentality.
- October 30th, 2009, 12:00 pm
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Thank you DancingFool.

I have found the example most understand is someone steps off a curb against a light and people follow without looking at the light. People argue well they could have looked at the light and known not to cross. Yes, but you can also see the blood from a stab wound or a girl on the ground being raped.

I have not done a lot of reading about this but I wonder if it is not born of the same process that creates our perception of social norms. You know no one walks around without clothes so we know it is a social norm to wear clothes. We know it is a social norm not to stab people so we are in conflict at witnessing this. Meh, maybe I am making it too simple.
- October 30th, 2009, 01:18 pm
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hazmat wrote :
As a nation, how did we get to the point where a 15yo high school girl can be beaten, robbed, and gang raped at her homecoming dance by at least 5 young men, with at least 15 others watching, laughing, and videotaping the crime over 2 hours, with no one attempting to help or call for help ?

How can we even begin to solve things like the economy, health care, and the environment if our moral compass is so flawed ?

It's sickening. We have to be better than this.
I will take "jsbach"s response ( I agree) one step further......hazmat: flawed "collective" moral compass = not valuing life (i.e. the "culture of death"). I value life.

I wish all threaders well.
- October 31st, 2009, 12:38 pm
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Can_I_just_be_Jo wrote :
God folks clearly you don't understand psychology. It is actually human nature to look to others for guidence in a situation. If no one is reacting your mind assumes there is nothing to react to. It is sad but true. Chances are in the same situation you would react the same way. Doesn't make you a bad person, just human.

If you are ever in a situation where you are being attacked with witnesses use clear sentences. No help me or anything you would see on TV. I AM BEING RAPED!!111 CALL THE POLICE!!! Try to make eye contact with the witnesses. This doesn't mean that those that are attacked are at fault if they don't do this. Many don't know that this is human nature.

Me, I am so annoying I always get in the middle of stuff. Easier to apologize for a misunderstanding than comfort someone who has just been through hell that could have been avoided if you took action. You would be amazed how many kids on campus joke about attacks. I just ask is there something going on here. They usually stop and laugh a bit and say nope we are just joking around. Have fun. How easy would it be to pass a group of kids and think, aww they are just joking, I should stop bugging them. Human nature.

It may be human nature for most to stand in stunned disbelief, fear, or to run with the mob, but not all.

If I don't understand the behavior, it's because it's not in my nature.
- October 31st, 2009, 12:50 pm
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hazmat wrote :
It may be human nature for most to stand in stunned disbelief, fear, or to run with the mob, but not all.

If I don't understand the behavior, it's because it's not in my nature.
Once again, Haz, wise beyond your years. Oh, wait. That's right, you're OLD. :-)
- October 31st, 2009, 03:20 pm
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I have seen someone being physically assaulted. It was New Year's Eve on the Boston Common about 15 years ago now. A bunch of kids jumped another bunch of kids. A melee ensued. I was wandering aimlessly when I saw this start. By the time I got to the fight there was one kid on the ground and two kids kicking him. One of them kicked him in the head so hard I swore the kid was dead. Blood everywhere. The two kids took off. A couple of the wounded guy's friends were standing there beaten up and dazed. I yelled at one to go get a cop, and when he didn't move I went up to him and screamed to go get a cop (there are tons of cops on Boston Common on that night). I took off my coat and covered the kid on the ground and asked the other kid for his shirt so I could stem some of the bleeding. Did I have to do any of this? No way. Was I scared out of my mind? You bet. T he cops came immediately, the ambulance seconds afterward and off the kid went. I gave the cop a description of the two kids and they picked them up about 10 min later on the other side of the Common. I identified them for the cops and was shaking with fear that they were going to hunt me down and wreck me. I never saw them again.

I did, however, see the wounded kid and his two friends again multiple times at court sessions. The cop told the wounded kid who I was and he didn't even say hi. Flicked his eyes my way, then away. Had a huge scar on the side of his head. The beaters ended up pleading guilty so I never had to see them or testify, and they both got signicant juvie time (they were 15 and 16, as I recall).

Please don't think all people react by doing nothing. What I did was pure instinct. Since I'm nothing special, I think most people have that same instinct and those that don't are the ones who are different. I think very few would watch a girl being gang raped and not do anything. There is something deeply wrong with the kids who did that, just as there were things deeply wrong with the men who cheered on that gang rape that became the plot of that movie with Jodie Foster (title escapes me).

I go with the "people are basically good" philosphy whereas you seem to go with the "people are basically bad" philosophy since you think most people wouldn't have reacted to the gang rape. I don't know what I would have done as I wasn't there, but I sure do like to think that same instinct would kick in and lead me to smack some kid upside the head and break it up. Or at least call 911.
- October 31st, 2009, 03:33 pm
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Nah, Emme, haz isn't old.
He's a young pup!
With an old soul.

We need more like him.
- October 31st, 2009, 03:35 pm
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brneyedangel brneyedangel is offline
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Emme wrote :
I have seen someone being physically assaulted. It was New Year's Eve on the Boston Common about 15 years ago now. A bunch of kids jumped another bunch of kids. A melee ensued. I was wandering aimlessly when I saw this start. By the time I got to the fight there was one kid on the ground and two kids kicking him. One of them kicked him in the head so hard I swore the kid was dead. Blood everywhere. The two kids took off. A couple of the wounded guy's friends were standing there beaten up and dazed. I yelled at one to go get a cop, and when he didn't move I went up to him and screamed to go get a cop (there are tons of cops on Boston Common on that night). I took off my coat and covered the kid on the ground and asked the other kid for his shirt so I could stem some of the bleeding. Did I have to do any of this? No way. Was I scared out of my mind? You bet. T he cops came immediately, the ambulance seconds afterward and off the kid went. I gave the cop a description of the two kids and they picked them up about 10 min later on the other side of the Common. I identified them for the cops and was shaking with fear that they were going to hunt me down and wreck me. I never saw them again.

I did, however, see the wounded kid and his two friends again multiple times at court sessions. The cop told the wounded kid who I was and he didn't even say hi. Flicked his eyes my way, then away. Had a huge scar on the side of his head. The beaters ended up pleading guilty so I never had to see them or testify, and they both got signicant juvie time (they were 15 and 16, as I recall).

Please don't think all people react by doing nothing. What I did was pure instinct. Since I'm nothing special, I think most people have that same instinct and those that don't are the ones who are different. I think very few would watch a girl being gang raped and not do anything. There is something deeply wrong with the kids who did that, just as there were things deeply wrong with the men who cheered on that gang rape that became the plot of that movie with Jodie Foster (title escapes me).

I go with the "people are basically good" philosphy whereas you seem to go with the "people are basically bad" philosophy since you think most people wouldn't have reacted to the gang rape. I don't know what I would have done as I wasn't there, but I sure do like to think that same instinct would kick in and lead me to smack some kid upside the head and break it up. Or at least call 911.
+1

Emme, thanks for sharing this. When I was assaulted by a "friend" in college (he tried to put my face through a windshield from the outside of the car after smacking me around a bit), people didn't just stand by, either, and because of that, he didn't succeed in the end. I don't stand by when I see things happening to others, either, and I never will.

I agree with you that people react on instinct, as well as that people are basically good. Does that mean everyone fits this mold? No, but I think more people do than don't. I know the people I choose to surround myself with have no problem with jumping in and helping others out in these situations, and I've seen them do it, too.
Last edited by brneyedangel; October 31st, 2009 at 04:01 pm.
- October 31st, 2009, 03:52 pm
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brneyedangel brneyedangel is offline
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Emme wrote :
Once again, Haz, wise beyond your years. Oh, wait. That's right, you're OLD. :-)
Old?? Oh Puh-leese!!

But wise, yes, I agree.
- October 31st, 2009, 03:59 pm
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