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Rand_011 Rand_011 is offline
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DW ... Meri75 is right ... It all boils down to the individual ... Not what they claim to beleive ... Not what country they originate from ... Not their ethnic background ...

I would hazard to guess that the devout (please note I am excluding those that on either side of the coin that feel violence is a possible solution) on both ends would be roughly equal in kindness and generosity ...
- October 19th, 2009, 09:35 am
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dwreese182 dwreese182 is offline
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Rand_011 wrote :
DW ... Meri75 is right ... It all boils down to the individual ... Not what they claim to beleive ... Not what country they originate from ... Not their ethnic background ...
I would have to disagree again. Some cultures are simply friendlier to people as a whole. A good example would be the Native Americans, some tribes were very hostile and were always trying to obtain land, while others were peaceful and wanted to be friends and trade partners with other tribes and were found sharing land and resources and sometimes even sharing villages. I'm not a behavioral psychologist, but I think a study on personality vs location would be a very interesting read. I do believe religion has a part in the development a persons personality, while it is obviously not the only factor, it is a major one.

I just don't see it coming down to the "individual" as individuals are molded by a multitude of things including their surroundings, peers, culture, religion, social expectations, experiences and mental capacity to take events and learn from them, to name a few. If every person were to be isolated from the world at birth, then yes, I think it would be on the individual but since humans are very social animals, society plays a huge role in the development of a person.
Last edited by dwreese182; October 20th, 2009 at 01:32 am.
- October 20th, 2009, 01:09 am
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lil_lamb lil_lamb is offline
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dwreese182 wrote :
I mean "allowed", just like I'm "allowed" to see the doctor any day of the week? Do I have to give a definitions for kindergarten level vocabulary?
yes, you do have to give a definition of "allowed" since there is a question of women needing permission from husbands/fathers/brothers in islamic cultures for all sorts of things and as to their status as a whole human being able to hold property, have their testimony count, etc. the same as men.

wrote :
So because you don't see Muslim countries/organizations assisting in the western world you think that they are not as kind?
no, i do not. duh.

wrote :
If you make an effort not to see it then you won't.
yeah, think about that. is it me, or is it you?

wrote :
Really? Bigger scale? Possibly in the US but take a look at the rest of the world. Of course, since Christianity has more members it obviously has more donations.
what are you going on about? you brought up bigger scale, and i was telling you it's irrelevant to my point.

wrote :
The list goes on and on, but I'm not about to post every registered Muslim charity organization. Get off the Christian high-horse.
you are imagining things. i haven't drawn a single conclusion.

but lets explore honour killings. when a woman is raped and her family kills her for the dishonour, what does this say for kindness?

wrote :
You aren't better than anyone because of your religious affiliation.
well, you've answered your own question here.
- October 20th, 2009, 01:27 am
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dwreese182 dwreese182 is offline
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I apologize for my last post, I went on the attack a little too much and got off the subject.

lil_lamb wrote :
yes, you do have to give a definition of "allowed" since there is a question of women needing permission from husbands/fathers/brothers in islamic cultures for all sorts of things and as to their status as a whole human being able to hold property, have their testimony count, etc. the same as men.
It was not that long ago the US has had problem with gender equality...and some would argue it is still a major issue today in the US. While I think that it is a horrible thing to hold someone down because of the race, gender, religion, ethnicity or age, it is ultimately up to the citizens and local government to fix their own issues.


lil_lamb wrote :
but lets explore honour killings. when a woman is raped and her family kills her for the dishonour, what does this say for kindness?
I agree this is not a very compassionate thing to do and is very appalling. But lets look at some statistics. Worldwide there are an estimated 5000 victims of honor-keelings. This includes both men and women, because honor-keelings do not just happen to women. I'm not trying to downscale the problem because even if there was just one murder in the world annually that would be one to many.

Even more shocking is that a poll in Qatar, a fairly liberal muslim country (compared to surrounding countries), said that 42 percent of the women feel that domestic abuse is acceptable. This is a cultural phenominon, once more women in the Middle East feel this is unnacceptable it will start to become a hot topic in the region. Just as in the US, the people being abused or the minority opinion must stand up for itself before anything will be done.

I do not agree with how women are treated in the Middle East, but lets compare. In the US, approximately 1.3 million women are assaulted by their significant other annually. Each year almost 1500 women were murdered by their significant other. And remember, that honor killing was at 5000 for the entire world, while most occur in just a handfull of countries (btw, none of which the US is currently at "war" with), . Many of these murders in the US could be considered "honor" keelings as well. It's just not a Christian term, so it's not used. Same crime, different name.

BTW, I am NOT from the Middle East nor am I Muslim. I dont' like any religion. No problem with faith or personal beliefs, it's just the religion part I don't like.
- October 20th, 2009, 06:56 am
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Rand_011 Rand_011 is offline
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dwreese182 wrote :
I agree this is not a very compassionate thing to do and is very appalling. But lets look at some statistics. Worldwide there are an estimated 5000 victims of honor-keelings. This includes both men and women, because honor-keelings do not just happen to women. I'm not trying to downscale the problem because even if there was just one murder in the world annually that would be one to many.

I do not agree with how women are treated in the Middle East, but lets compare. In the US, approximately 1.3 million women are assaulted by their significant other annually. Each year almost 1500 women were murdered by their significant other. And remember, that honor killing was at 5000 for the entire world, while most occur in just a handfull of countries (btw, none of which the US is currently at "war" with), . Many of these murders in the US could be considered "honor" keelings as well. It's just not a Christian term, so it's not used. Same crime, different name.
Umm ... Now I might not be a rocket scientist ... But I am fairly certain that more than 5000 women are killed each year by a significant other ... Actually ... Just doing a quick google search led to a quick answer ... According to the Afghanistan Women's Council, 4000 women are killed each year by an intimate partner. Which seems to give credence to my theory that your comparison holds 0 water

Honor killings is different from the murders in the US ... One is looked on as justified and reasonable (Honor killings) (according to the local populace, at least that is my understanding) ... The other is rarely looked with anything but disgust or harsher feelings (by the local populace).
- October 20th, 2009, 09:30 am
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Who is kinder? Neither....too much of a generalization for me sir. Just remember that experiencing things as an outsider is different than when you actually become one and see things from the inside out. Just because someone takes up the label/identity of a religion doesn't make them any more Christian or Muslim. Years of studying and practice make you what you are and everyone is on different levels of that spiritual spectrum. Some communities are more in tune with the true essence of their particular religious philosophies and therefore more successful in executing it and creating a more fair and peaceful environment for all members of the community...members and non-members.

So typical of me that I take the middle path on this topic. I did not come to Islam because I hate Christianity or Christians. I came to Islam because all the experiences in my life were leading me there (both the good and the bad). All the experiences that I am going through now help to challenge me and help me grow as a Muslim. Someday I will find that special man and community that will truly support me in my goals as whether you are a Christian or a Muslim it is clear to us that in the end we will stand alone before our Creator to face judgment.

My conclusion is that we have a lot to learn from each other. When you can see the good in another person and want to incorporate those good practices in your own daily life, that is what I call progress. Isn't that what the "living word" is all about? There were times in history when Jewish, Christian, and Muslim people got along so well that they even intermarried but those also were times when they were really practicing their faith (being chaste, putting God in the center of their world instead of the periphery). We have the prophets in common to draw inspiration from from Abraham (AS), Moses (AS), Jesus (AS),and Mohamed (SAW)...they all have the essential qualities in common that made them pleasing to our Creator.

BTW...the agency I work for would not have been possible without the help and support of good Christians who helped the members of the refugee communities arrive and acclimate themselves into American society despite the fact that they are Muslims. The fact that they in turn made their own agency that not only assist their people but refugees from other countries shows real progress. In the end we all win when we help support people in leading healthy and productive lives...despite their backgrounds. There can be no progress for anyone without peace and justice for all.
- October 20th, 2009, 10:30 am
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dwreese182 dwreese182 is offline
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Rand_011 wrote :
Umm ... Now I might not be a rocket scientist ...
LoL You really like that saying.

Rand_011 wrote :
But I am fairly certain that more than 5000 women are killed each year by a significant other
I didn't say there weren't more than 5000 killed by their significant other in the world. I said there were approximately 5000 honor killings a year worldwide. Which if I read your post correctly, you see them as two separate things.

Rand_011 wrote :
... Actually ... Just doing a quick google search led to a quick answer ... According to the Afghanistan Women's Council, 4000 women are killed each year by an intimate partner.
I don't doubt the validity of those numbers.

Rand_011 wrote :
Honor killings is different from the murders in the US ... One is looked on as justified and reasonable (Honor killings) (according to the local populace, at least that is my understanding) ... The other is rarely looked with anything but disgust or harsher feelings (by the local populace).
I have no doubt that the public looks at the killings differently in the US. I would suggest the motive is the same in some, if not most of the cases though. How society looks at it has nothing to do with why it is caused, it's just a decider on if people get away with it or not. If you catch your wife cheating on you and you murder her, I would consider that an honor killing.....regardless if you are in the middle east or not. The definition can't hold true in one place and false in another. While some countries, and I haven't the slightest idea if this is in any countries laws, might say that honor killings are a freebee outta jail, it must define what an honor killing is.

Here is Human Rights Watch definition of an honor killing:

"Honor killings are committed by male family members against female family members, who are held to have brought dishonor upon the family. A woman can be targeted by (individuals within) her family for a variety of reasons, including: refusing to enter into an arranged marriage, being the victim of a sexual assault, seeking a divorce—even from an abusive husband or (allegedly) committing adultery."

It does not mention anything about the legality or acceptance of it.


I hope you are not taking this as me "defending" honor killings, because that is not the case.
- October 20th, 2009, 11:53 am
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Rand_011 Rand_011 is offline
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dwreese182 wrote :
LoL You really like that saying.
Yup ... I really love that sayying ... Mostly due to my friend's dad who is a rocket scientist ... And had the t-shirt that read 'No, I really am a rocket scientist', hehehe. Always makes me chuckle.
- October 20th, 2009, 12:17 pm
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dwreese182 dwreese182 is offline
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PR_Princess wrote :
Who is kinder? Neither....too much of a generalization for me sir. Just remember that experiencing things as an outsider is different than when you actually become one and see things from the inside out. Just because someone takes up the label/identity of a religion doesn't make them any more Christian or Muslim. Years of studying and practice make you what you are and everyone is on different levels of that spiritual spectrum. Some communities are more in tune with the true essence of their particular religious philosophies and therefore more successful in executing it and creating a more fair and peaceful environment for all members of the community...members and non-members.

So typical of me that I take the middle path on this topic. I did not come to Islam because I hate Christianity or Christians. I came to Islam because all the experiences in my life were leading me there (both the good and the bad). All the experiences that I am going through now help to challenge me and help me grow as a Muslim. Someday I will find that special man and community that will truly support me in my goals as whether you are a Christian or a Muslim it is clear to us that in the end we will stand alone before our Creator to face judgment.

My conclusion is that we have a lot to learn from each other. When you can see the good in another person and want to incorporate those good practices in your own daily life, that is what I call progress. Isn't that what the "living word" is all about? There were times in history when Jewish, Christian, and Muslim people got along so well that they even intermarried but those also were times when they were really practicing their faith (being chaste, putting God in the center of their world instead of the periphery). We have the prophets in common to draw inspiration from from Abraham (AS), Moses (AS), Jesus (AS),and Mohamed (SAW)...they all have the essential qualities in common that made them pleasing to our Creator.

BTW...the agency I work for would not have been possible without the help and support of good Christians who helped the members of the refugee communities arrive and acclimate themselves into American society despite the fact that they are Muslims. The fact that they in turn made their own agency that not only assist their people but refugees from other countries shows real progress. In the end we all win when we help support people in leading healthy and productive lives...despite their backgrounds. There can be no progress for anyone without peace and justice for all.
There are some things that here that I agree with and some which I don't agree with. I don't want to get into them here because that would be more suited for the "Religion Topic" forum and would take this wwaaaayyyyy off the subject.

I will reiterate that religion and society (along with several other factors, some of which I mentioned earlier) can play a big part in the shaping of ones personality. From my experience, I have noticed that people of the middle east are more "giving" than their western counterpart. And honestly, I really don't think "sprituality" has anything to do with it. I think people are either raised kind giving people, or they aren't.

Now, I have some friends that were born in Iraq/Egypt/UAE and then moved to the US that are non-muslims and they too share the trait of being kinder and more giving, sometimes it is almost annoying at how persistent they are when you don't want/need something they want to give. Have I met rude people from the Middle East, of course (almost the entire country of Kuwait), but by far I have been welcomed and treated better by Middle Easter/South West Asia locals. The hospitality is unmatched in most the world. If it weren't for how expensive the middle east is I would consider moving there.
- October 20th, 2009, 12:27 pm
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dwreese182 dwreese182 is offline
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Rand_011 wrote :
And had the t-shirt that read 'No, I really am a rocket scientist', hehehe. Always makes me chuckle.
Too funny. LoL By chance, did he have any friends that were brain surgeons?
- October 20th, 2009, 12:29 pm
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