The barbarism of our time.


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D_Lion is offline D_Lion Post #1  September 11,2009, 5:25pm
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The lack of equality of access to medical care is not the only gross civil and human rights violation remaining in the US, just the most topical.

That our president finds this wrong is not a cause for condemnation, but for accolades.

Rep. Wilson, et.al., and others who would put back the "colored" water fountains, are defending a failure which shocked the conscience of civilized people generations ago; that our friends, our family, our neighbors, suffer avoidably and needlessly, to protect nothing more than others' greed, is a stain upon this nation's claim to set a moral agenda.

We are better.
 
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lizard47 is offline lizard47 Post #2  September 12,2009, 12:20pm
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So because I disagree with or find something President Obama said a lie or feel that he is leading our country in the wrong the direction I am a racist?
Maybe I should introduce you to my best friend since when I take her kids places I get strange looks,
Reminds me of being in college and called a racist simple because of who my parents are, I felt sorry for the guy who said it to me because the faculty advisor had known me since I was 8 years old and looked at the shmuck who had said to me and said "boy you have alot to learn, you are judging her by how she looks whereas she is judging you by what you say".(FYI advisor was black, his description of himself not mine).
Last edited by lizard47; September 12,2009 at 5:34pm.
 
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D_Lion is offline D_Lion Post #3  September 12,2009, 6:32pm
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At issue is a mindset which says some people are treated humanly, and others are not.

This battle has been fought too many times already.
 
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lizard47 is offline lizard47 Post #4  September 13,2009, 9:38am
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D_Lion wrote :
At issue is a mindset which says some people are treated humanly, and others are not.

This battle has been fought too many times already.
And you are the one who is claiming that the mindset has to do with race. For me it has nothing to do with race, it has to do with the fact that I do not want the government involved in my healthcare. I have seen what their involvement has done to others and don't want it. I also do not want the government to have access to my bank account so they can determine how much I should have to pay for healthcare.
NONE of that has anything to do with race or a mindset against others. I am against government taking over more things that they have no business being involved with at all.
 
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w_elissa is offline w_elissa Post #5  September 13,2009, 4:32pm
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lizard47 wrote :
And you are the one who is claiming that the mindset has to do with race. For me it has nothing to do with race, it has to do with the fact that I do not want the government involved in my healthcare. I have seen what their involvement has done to others and don't want it. I also do not want the government to have access to my bank account so they can determine how much I should have to pay for healthcare.
NONE of that has anything to do with race or a mindset against others. I am against government taking over more things that they have no business being involved with at all.

I don't think the problem is government stepping into health care...I think there is anothe issue there, and that is which government. Is the US government really ready for it? I do think other governments have shown it can work. My grandmother lived in another country and recieved wonderful health care from them. She even had people coming to the house to help her out all the time. She was in a country that has a universal health care. I on the other hand have health care through my work that barely covers anything. It seems every time I go to the doctor, when it is required by the doctor, I end up paying...and it's a few hunderd dollars each time. Something isn't right there.
 
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dito is offline dito Post #6  September 13,2009, 4:36pm
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w_elissa wrote :
I don't think the problem is government stepping into health care...I think there is anothe issue there, and that is which government. Is the US government really ready for it? I do think other governments have shown it can work. My grandmother lived in another country and recieved wonderful health care from them. She even had people coming to the house to help her out all the time. She was in a country that has a universal health care. I on the other hand have health care through my work that barely covers anything. It seems every time I go to the doctor, when it is required by the doctor, I end up paying...and it's a few hunderd dollars each time. Something isn't right there.
It's not the government's responsibility to provide health care. What's next food, houses, cars? Reform is needed. But not what's proposed nor is government health care.
 
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lizard47 is offline lizard47 Post #7  September 13,2009, 9:19pm
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w_elissa wrote :
I don't think the problem is government stepping into health care...I think there is anothe issue there, and that is which government. Is the US government really ready for it? I do think other governments have shown it can work. My grandmother lived in another country and recieved wonderful health care from them. She even had people coming to the house to help her out all the time. She was in a country that has a universal health care. I on the other hand have health care through my work that barely covers anything. It seems every time I go to the doctor, when it is required by the doctor, I end up paying...and it's a few hunderd dollars each time. Something isn't right there.
We have that here as well. My grandparents lived out in the middle of no where Texas and twice to three times a week someone went out to the ranch to provide care to my grandfather and it was through a government program(the drive one way is about 1 hour 45 min).
My parents live in a remote area as well and they have someone who comes out once a week to check on my mom's stuff and my dad's stuff.
Also just because other countries are doing something does not mean it is right or that we need to, we need to do what is the best for our country and not worry about what other countries are doing.
 
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Jacquesne is offline Jacquesne Post #8  September 14,2009, 8:34am
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If there is a necessity for government health care it should be, in my opinion, delegated to the states. Either way health care is not the core of your, well, statement I guess. So I won't start there.

In my opinion, and I'll try to back this up, the federal government is not the place to be deciding "moral" issues! I cannot emphasize that enough (although I suppose I could add italics and underlining but that's not the point).

Why do I say that? Simply because everyone doesn't have the same moral values. Think about it. To many liberals our carbon emissions affecting the environment is "wrong." Even if I point out that a single volcanic eruption causes nearly the same carbon emission in the upper atmosphere than virtually all of industrial history it makes no difference; we're destroying the environment, that's wrong, and therefore the government has a moral imperative to create policy in which to fix this issue.

On the flip side, from my perspective, all the talk of "human rights violations" are hilarious since I see the nearly 1.37 million aborted children per year as a human rights violation. "Colored" water fountains seem like a pretty minor issue when you compare it to black women being three times as likely as white women to have an abortion and minorities, who make up 26% of the American population, likewise making up over 40% of the women having abortions.

So if I went to the federal government with this issue (again, my own) and instituted policy to correct it would you agree? Probably not. Nor would the majority of Americans in all likelihood. If I were in, say, Alaska, Utah, Montana, etc., they may agree with my perspective. If I were in California or New York I'd probably be ignored, given a speech on women's rights, or even classified as a chauvinist.

That's why the states exist. We love talking about these "democratic" governments like England, Canada, Sweden, etc. which have "universal health care" and all these other great things and forget that we have three times the population of these three countries combined. California alone has three million more people than ALL of Canada. Illinois has four million more people than Sweden.

My point is this. We're talking about a "universal" system along the models of "universal" systems that exist in countries smaller than our individual states. What you're talking about is not universal health care like that which exists in European countries, what you're talking about it something akin to creating a universal health care system involving almost half of Europe, plus getting the French and the Germans to agree on a good system (and having it work just as well in both countries). Good luck with that.

Let's face it. Not everyone is ever going to agree with us. I'm never going to agree that abortion is right. Someone else may never agree with me that eating meat isn't murder. Sure, I have my arguments, as they have theirs. Ultimately, however, morality differs based on your personal experience, culture, family, etc. Creating a "universal morality" across a country as large as the U.S. is simply not possible without sacrificing freedom to do so.

Does that mean I won't argue my position? Of course not. I'll try to convince people (and sometimes I succeed). Ultimately, however, I disagree with Obama's policy of promoting "unity" as much as I disagreed with Lincoln's. That doesn't mean I want a return to slavery (which, by the way, existed in other countries well into the 20th century) but our centralized system needs to focus on issues which affect the entire country and leave things that are purview of the states, like health care and morality, to the freaking states.

I have no problem with the president being against health care problems. I happen to agree with him; I believe the problems in our health care are real issues that should be solved. Lincoln was against slavery and I agree with him on that issue. I don't agree with either, however, that the federal government should remove the power of the states, and consequently the people, to make their own choices and mistakes. Doing so removes freedom more acutely than any "spying" the Patriot Act ever did.

The ends do NOT justify the means. And President Obama, and "his" congress, are currently using means I find wrong. Until this changes he could be implementing global policies to cure cancer and I'll still oppose it because I believe freedom is more important than unity and I believe the American people share my view.

But I've been wrong before .

Jacquesne
 
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w_elissa is offline w_elissa Post #9  September 15,2009, 4:33pm
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dito wrote :
It's not the government's responsibility to provide health care. What's next food, houses, cars? Reform is needed. But not what's proposed nor is government health care.

I think we are torn... because where I am now government is providing food and health coverage for some. I teach in a very poor economic area and most of the students recieve free breakfast and lunch...so yes the governement is giving them food. They get discounted and free uniforms, so government is paying for their clothes...and the students glasses, denstists, shots and more. The government pays for these things for the poor. Oh wait, we do, through our taxes; but then me, a tax paying citizen can't get my health insurance to pay for squat. If things were universal I think it might level the playing field. To many people are stuck in the awful shape where they don't make enough but they make to much...I don't necessarly trust our governement to make it 'fair' yet, but I do think universal health care is the way to go and will help, if done right, to simplify things. Throwing reform on top of reform doesn't get to the root of the problems. It's the same thing they do in education. They pile reform on reform, which are bandaids. Instead we need to strip it all back and begin again.
 
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sabete2002 is offline sabete2002 Post #10  September 15,2009, 4:47pm
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lizard47 wrote :
And you are the one who is claiming that the mindset has to do with race. For me it has nothing to do with race, it has to do with the fact that I do not want the government involved in my healthcare. I have seen what their involvement has done to others and don't want it. I also do not want the government to have access to my bank account so they can determine how much I should have to pay for healthcare.
NONE of that has anything to do with race or a mindset against others. I am against government taking over more things that they have no business being involved with at all.
Given that you pay taxes and can be audited at any time, they know already.
 
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