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jamesp81's Avatar

jamesp81 Old loves, they die hard. Old lies, they die harder

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I think bringing in Kennedy's passing was a monumental mistake on Obama's part.

Wilson's comment was unusual but not inappropriate. Certainly no worse than what the left did to Bush while he was president. Turnabout is always and forever fair play.

The biggest mistake Wilson made was apologizing for saying something that was actually true. Obama stood up there and called everyone on the right a liar. As such, I would've found it completely appropriate if every republican in the building had gotten up left in the middle of his speech. I certainly would have. I would not feel obligated to sit still and smile while tolerating such abuse.

Respect my foot. The office gets respect when the guy occupying it earns it.

The republicans have been trying to play nice for years and it's gotten them nowhere. It's time for the other side to experience some of their own medicine.

Last edited by jamesp81; September 11th, 2009 at 09:16 am. Reason: clarity
- September 11th, 2009, 09:14 am
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Jacquesne's Avatar

Jacquesne knows the answer...42

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I have to ask the question...when have the American people ever "respected the office" of the president? Are you kidding? Without parody of the president we probably wouldn't have half our political discourse .

I'm exaggerating, of course, but Clinton and Bush were both constantly challenged and even ridiculed for their opinions. Why does Obama gain immunity to the same? What's so special about him? If anything he isn't getting enough heat in my opinion. We wouldn't want a soft president, now would we? Oh, wait...this is Obama! (See what I did there? )

According to the news only 32 million Americans watched the speech on television. That's a little over 10%. My theory is that people are getting bored of watching Obama very eloquently say nothing at all. As opposed to our previous president who said things very strongly very badly . Based on the numbers of people who watch the news daily there are considerably more Americans who know about Wilson's outburst than actually watched any of it happen.

Then again, I can't really blame them. With Obama it's often much easier to skip the speech and get the Cliff Notes version from your favorite news station afterwords and save yourself the trouble of sifting through the feel-good speech yourself.

For the conservatives this is Fox News, who would tell you Obama was distorting the truth if he said "Two plus two equals four...because it can!" and for liberals this is CNN/etc. who won't tell you anything he said and just tell you that it was, once again, "very well-spoken and inspirational." They will probably also throw in a couple of not-so-subtle comments about the lack of "team playing" by the Republicans when all Obama wants to do is "move past partisan politics" (which is a fancy, alliterate way of saying everyone share his point of view).

And then you can talk to people like me who literally fell asleep about ten minutes into the speech. I'm not proud of that. But it's the truth. His voice is just so, well, soothing. And since it still wasn't saying anything to actually engage my mind I unfortunately fell asleep long before he said anything of substance.

I actually did want to find out the details of the health care plan, as I have no idea what it really is, but since I fell asleep I didn't hear it. Based on synopses I've heard from various senators who were there after the fact it sounds like I didn't miss much. They don't know what it is, either. Even the democrats are saying "it's a good plan but they don't know the details."

In conclusion I'll tell you my thoughts on Obama's health care plan once I know what the heck it is and not what everyone else (who apparently don't know either) thinks about it. In my opinion a lot of people have a good or bad opinion of Obama and base their opinion of his plan on that. I personally couldn't care less about how I think of Obama as a person. I want to know what he (and consequently the legislature since they appear to have totally bought into this stuff) plan on actually doing and base my opinion on that.

I suppose I could try reading the bill. It's only 1,017 pages long and written in something vaguely akin to psuedocode without the comments. Honestly, though, I'd rather re-read the book of Numbers in the King James Version of the Bible.

From what few summaries I can find it has a lot of decent ideas spread out between a metric TON of terrible ideas. For instance no company can sue the government for price-fixing, no judicial review is permitted against government monopoly (which the bill creates), the government sets doctor's wages, all private healthcare must be incorporated into the government system, all non-US citizens will be provided free health care, a government committee determines your treatments and benefits...the list goes on and on.

All this would be great if somehow the government had some sort of built-in abuse prevention. If it exists I don't see it in the bill. I like the freedom to make my own mistakes. Perhaps I don't believe their treatment is the best one (or perhaps my doctor doesn't). With this bill they have to do what the committee (which as far as I can tell isn't made up of doctors and even if it were they may not be specialists) decrees. Does anyone else find this a Bad Idea?

The real issue is, however, that my objections are based on summaries that I've had to look up online, not the bill itself (primarily because I can't read the darn thing). Someone else could look up their own propaganda (i.e. something other than the first thing that came up on Google) and "prove" that I don't know what the truth behind the bill is.

The fact is, however, that they don't know either. Their "interpretation" is just as valid as mine because the bill (for those of you who, like me, were masochistic enough to actually try to read it) is ridiculously difficult to read (unless I'm simply stupid, which is a distinct possibility) and makes this parentheses-laden mess of a paragraph a work of art by comparison.

Interviews with senators indicate they're confused as well. I feel somewhat uncomfortable with the fact we're talking about whether or not to pass or not pass a bill which hardly anyone truly understands. For those of you who deal with law or politics often you may understand (and have a fancy word for) "unintended consequences." Logically the more complex the bill the greater the margin for it to be used in ways the writers did not intend.

Here's a crazy idea. Why make one health care reform bill? Why not make several easier-to-understand ones so it's simpler to deal with and isolate problems? In programming this is called "modular" design and is greatly preferred to writing one gigantic block of code.

So, in conclusion before I ramble on anymore, what were my thoughts on his speech? Depends on what I was dreaming during it and my thoughts about all the stuff being said about it afterwords .

Jacquesne
- September 12th, 2009, 10:27 am
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dnnmllr "Steady my feet in accord with your promise, Let not iniquity lead me"...

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Thoughts = to be determined. In observation, I will say that Obama seems to be doing a good job at "stating his positive intent" at "designated intervals" (i.e. tv broadcasts every @ 3 months). This "method"....."keeps people informed" @ "who he is and what he represents" *sigh*, this method does not make him a "better" leader.....just saying.
- September 12th, 2009, 12:29 pm
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lizard47 who you surround yourself with tells what you really believe

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Gonna shock a few people on here but while I understand Congressman Joe Wilson's frustration and the desire to call the statement made what it was, it was not the time or place.
In regards to the use of a blackberry during the speech and such. REALLY???? You really wanna go there. Look back at tapes of President Bush speaking to Congress and you will find that behavior was quite present and no one had a problem with it then. Plus wasn't it a Democrat Congresswomen who said that congress teaches you to multi-task, this was after she was brought under-fire by Conservatives for talking on the phone during a town hall meeting. I also would like to remind those who have come out decrying the rude behavior of Republicans of the rude behavior displayed by Democrats when President Bush was speaking, booing him is not much different and I remember seeing them on their phones too.
I have to wonder though, back before we had cameras and radios and the President was speaking to Congress....were they silent or did they speak out to him??? Sorry just something I was thinking about while watching the coverage.
Oh and I guess I should confess I didn't watch the speech, I knew I could catch the Cliffnotes version on the news networks.(Yes, I do watch more than just Fox).
Oh and one more thing, Congressman Wilson has already apologized and his apology has been accepted why are some still saying he has to apologize or be censured????
- September 12th, 2009, 01:54 pm
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legend29 is looking for a loophole....

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I know it is rude to start a thread and then not keep up with the thread , but I started back to work this week and am swamped with seating charts, class expectations, reading/writing assessments, student self-asessments, and learning style/multiple intelligence inventories...not to mention I am gradiing papers already ( and the biggest reason of all is that I actualy forgot I posted this thread...absent-mindedness can be a real pain sometimes...lol)!

But I have been reading the posts....very interesting thoughts....indeed!

Last edited by legend29; September 12th, 2009 at 02:32 pm.
- September 12th, 2009, 02:30 pm
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Robecology That's me holding a bag of "Wake the f... up" coffee ! Loved the label!

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My responses in blue;
tweet37 wrote :
First, I totally agree that Wilson was disrespectful, rude and grossly unprofessional. [totally agree] Bohner and the rest of the Repubs should let him hear about it. This isn't the British Parliament. (Have you ever seen clips of that?) ...and it refutes all the claims about the rude, extreme reactionary townhall meetings. The Republicans and conservatives are simply (very) sore losers...

And the only way to pay for this plan is new taxes. Anyone who claims it will be paid for by other budget cuts is delusional.

But the taxes are only on those taking in over $250K
...and the savings on preventative medicine will be phenomenal...

see this chart http://media-files.gather.com/images...96/f3/full.jpg

and http://www.outsource2india.com/image...l-services.gif
- September 12th, 2009, 02:44 pm
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graceventually is getting ready for the Nov. 28 wedding, and so won't be posting much!

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Like it or not, Congress has very strict rules of conduct for those on the floor. Heck, this is the organization that only started to allow women to wear pants a few years ago.

Wilson violated those standards in a way that has not been seen in living memory. Yes, there has been debate between and among both parties about "sarcastic" applause, Blackberrys and other mobile devices in use, etc., but no one remembers anyone doing what he did. That's why he'll be censured. He knew the rules; he ignored them. You can dislike the rules, or disagree with them all you want, but it doesn't matter much.......those are the standards they all signed on to uphold.

Last edited by graceventually; September 12th, 2009 at 04:37 pm.
- September 12th, 2009, 04:34 pm
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lizard47 who you surround yourself with tells what you really believe

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Like it or not, Congress has very strict rules of conduct for those on the floor. Heck, this is the organization that only started to allow women to wear pants a few years ago.

Wilson violated those standards in a way that has not been seen in living memory. Yes, there has been debate between and among both parties about "sarcastic" applause, Blackberrys and other mobile devices in use, etc., but no one remembers anyone doing what he did. That's why he'll be censured. He knew the rules; he ignored them. You can dislike the rules, or disagree with them all you want, but it doesn't matter much.......those are the standards they all signed on to uphold.
Again 2 wrongs do not make a right, but are you saying it was ok when the Democrats booed President Bush during a State of the Union Address??? Just curious because I do not recall anyone being threatened with censure after that, I am not trying to single you out Grace just asking in general.
- September 12th, 2009, 06:53 pm
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legend29 is looking for a loophole....

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lizard47 wrote :
Again 2 wrongs do not make a right, but are you saying it was ok when the Democrats booed President Bush during a State of the Union Address??? Just curious because I do not recall anyone being threatened with censure after that, I am not trying to single you out Grace just asking in general.
BTW: Love your avatar....he lost most of his sponsors but FOX kept him on anyway. I love watching Glenn Beck...but did not agree with him when he called Obama a racist...but he has helped me to understand what ACORN is about and for that I am truly grateful.

But....I like to keep myself informed and as FOX always likes to say "fair and balanced", so I also watch Rachel Maddow...her thoughts can be very interesting...indeed!
- September 13th, 2009, 06:49 am
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j0hn8andy .....Take off the Rings.....That's the Goal.....

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What I think is this.

I see people in this thread crying foul for what Rep Joe Wilson did. I see other people saying Yes, but...Look at the treatment of President Bush. And Dems were getting back at President Bush for President Clinton, and so on and on and on...

I think we are all to blame. I think it won't get better until we recognize we all play a part in this, we are all guilty. We can all make a difference when we take the time to look at each other as completely separate human beings with a right to a difference of opinion.

I do see our President as sometimes trying to drive a wedge between us, and hold up some as being worthy of scorn and contempt. I don't like it, but I think we can rise above it.

As for the illegal question, my understanding of our Constitution is that we are required not to discriminate. So if we offer something for all, we cannot discriminate against a person because they are illegal. Our Constitution does not say one has to be a citizen to receive our Rights. Our Rights are God-given, and apply to one and all. That's how I see it.

In California, taxpayers voted to deny public benefits to illegals a few years back on a State Proposition. The Supreme Court struck it down as being discriminatory.
- September 13th, 2009, 10:53 am
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