graceventually is offline graceventually Post #81  July 14,2009, 4:58pm
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Bandmate wrote :
of course it should be closed,when people don't say what you want to hear...how gracious of you to"overlook" my negative writings...how is it that i deserve such treatment from those obviously so high above me,so above it all...so so...well just so doggone perfect.
Oh, so you'd rather I didn't overlook them? Fine. I'll be keeping that in mind.

I have a question for you, since you have been so critical of the work of others here: what do you do? I'm curious.
 
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dito is offline dito Post #82  July 14,2009, 5:56pm
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neardc wrote :
This would actually be a very inefficient way to conduct science, and would also remove the oversight that is currently in place to protect research participants (and lab animals, too). This would also likely result in a huge "brain drain" to other countries where science is much better supported, which would have a negative impact on all kinds of other enterprises (technology, education, healthcare, etc.).
People wouldn't support an organization that harmed others or animals. How is it so much more efficient now? Swine flu vaccinations?
 
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neardc is offline neardc Post #83  July 14,2009, 6:13pm
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dito wrote :
People wouldn't support an organization that harmed others or animals.
And how would they know it was happening? Harm is not always readily apparent, and the consequences of it can also emerge over time. The ethical standards for the conduct of science are continuously reviewed in light of new knowledge and changes in context. Federally-funded scientists are now required to conform to those standards in order to receive funding. How would scientists be held accountable if they are funded directly as individuals? If they have to spend most of their time asking for handouts from individuals, when would they actually conduct science? How would there be any assurance of continuity or coordination of the scientific enterprise?
 
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bigfincat is offline bigfincat Post #84  July 14,2009, 6:33pm
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Bandmate wrote :
They do an especialy good job for those who are too self centered to care for their parents like their parents cared for them
Too self-centered OR smarter to know that they cannot provide the same quality of life that an elderly home can. Unless you can buy all of the equipment, hire nurses 24/7 & bring in all of the doctors that work for the elderly home then you cannot come close to equalling the care.

There are many issues that untrained people should not be dealing with. It is a nice thought that we could take care of our parents but most of us cannot unless we spent a long time specializing in that area.

The way our system works there are very few people that could afford elder care no matter how much money they made or saved in their lifetime. If medicare cannot pay that bill then there is no way that we could without it. So either hospitals reduce their prices to a rate which makes them NO MONEY or we subsidise it. There is no other alternative.
 
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graceventually is offline graceventually Post #85  July 14,2009, 6:55pm
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bigfincat wrote :
Too self-centered OR smarter to know that they cannot provide the same quality of life that an elderly home can. Unless you can buy all of the equipment, hire nurses 24/7 & bring in all of the doctors that work for the elderly home then you cannot come close to equalling the care.

There are many issues that untrained people should not be dealing with. It is a nice thought that we could take care of our parents but most of us cannot unless we spent a long time specializing in that area.

The way our system works there are very few people that could afford elder care no matter how much money they made or saved in their lifetime. If medicare cannot pay that bill then there is no way that we could without it. So either hospitals reduce their prices to a rate which makes them NO MONEY or we subsidise it. There is no other alternative.
Excellent points, all. I've personally never seen a family that put a loved one in a nursing home due to "selfishness", although I am sure that there are some. Most I've known have had to make this choice because they can no longer physically care for the individual (if they are too heavy for them to lift, for example) or, most commonly, because the individual requires more supervision than they are able to provide if they intend to go to work. Not to mention that many nursing home patients enjoy the contact with others of their own age, and find that they are more comfortable there than at home alone with a nurse all day.
 
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bigfincat is offline bigfincat Post #86  July 14,2009, 6:59pm
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Bandmate wrote :
Any evidence to prove that government is any less corrupt or has not made messes just as big ? political corruption is both legendary and historically documented and it gets a pass if in it's corruption and fraud it makes provision for the electorate which will return them to office again and again
I don't think that gov't gets more of a pass. I like the fact that we at least have some transparency with gov't & if caught we can do something about it.

I have no trust in bigwigs that deal behind closed doors or perhaps at the country club & make decisions that could affect the working people in many ways. All people with power can hide their dirty dealings from us & it is maddening. That is never going to change unfortunately.

I think that the corruption & fraud & power grabs happen daily in the private sector. They manipulate the law and strip it of its intent or just sidestep it completely.

I think that if gov't takes power from corporations (who got their power by grabbing it from someone else...the working class including swallowing up small businesses...in a power grab) then I am OK with that. I think that they can serve the working class far better.

I would recommend the movie Wall Street as an illustration of how the dealings of bigwigs can destroy small companies & even entire towns.
 
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Bandmate is offline Bandmate Post #87  July 15,2009, 3:03am

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graceventually wrote :
Oh, so you'd rather I didn't overlook them? Fine. I'll be keeping that in mind.

I have a question for you, since you have been so critical of the work of others here: what do you do? I'm curious.

Sure,im not as important as the other one,she has to be careful since she is such a shining light in her profession just the mere mention of it and everybody would know who she is.I work for a company that sells and services equipment used in manufacturing,warehousing and distribution...if it's made,stored,sold or distributed we see it.I see firsthand what this economy is doing to business and the burdens placed on business by government,supported of course by those who have never operated a business and know nothing about it...but love the money it produces and are always there with their hand out.
 
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Bandmate is offline Bandmate Post #88  July 15,2009, 3:16am

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bigfincat wrote :
I don't think that gov't gets more of a pass. I like the fact that we at least have some transparency with gov't & if caught we can do something about it.

I have no trust in bigwigs that deal behind closed doors or perhaps at the country club & make decisions that could affect the working people in many ways. All people with power can hide their dirty dealings from us & it is maddening. That is never going to change unfortunately.

I think that the corruption & fraud & power grabs happen daily in the private sector. They manipulate the law and strip it of its intent or just sidestep it completely.

I think that if gov't takes power from corporations (who got their power by grabbing it from someone else...the working class including swallowing up small businesses...in a power grab) then I am OK with that. I think that they can serve the working class far better.

I would recommend the movie Wall Street as an illustration of how the dealings of bigwigs can destroy small companies & even entire towns.

I will ask you again what eveidence you have that government is less corrupt...transperency ? in the form of what...face the nation,meet the press,we are told exactly what they want us to know.I understand if you choose to trust government and in the courst of your own mind i'm sure the evidence is sufficient,but if you were the government's lawyer in a court of law aruing for governmental integrity vs private sector corruption what evidence would you offer ?
 
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graceventually is offline graceventually Post #89  July 15,2009, 5:35am
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Bandmate wrote :
Sure,im not as important as the other one,she has to be careful since she is such a shining light in her profession just the mere mention of it and everybody would know who she is.I work for a company that sells and services equipment used in manufacturing,warehousing and distribution...if it's made,stored,sold or distributed we see it.I see firsthand what this economy is doing to business and the burdens placed on business by government,supported of course by those who have never operated a business and know nothing about it...but love the money it produces and are always there with their hand out.
I'm sure that is interesting and varied work. But I think you misunderstood neardc's statement. There are many, many DC-area jobs (and I do mean thousands) either in government or in businesses which have government contracts, that require their employees to keep a "low profile". This can be because the employee holds a security clearance and is forbidden from talking about their work to anyone outside. Or perhaps they're not actually cleared, but the company or agency simply doesn't want to draw too much attention to its work, either for propietary or for security reasons. It has nothing to do with an employee acting "self-important". It may be a matter of keeping the job. If the employee holds a certain TS-level clearance (and I'm not speaking of neardc here, but just in general terms) then it's a matter of upholding the law.
I don't know what neardc does, but here's an example of the folks I know who would probably all refuse to give information about where they work on a social networking site. The list of my acquaintances in that category would include: one NSA analyst, one person who works in Defense Mapping, one FBI agent, one person who is senior management-level in the National Institute of Science and Technology, one engineer on a defense contract with ITT, one PR guy employed thru NASA , and 4 people (the business owner and his two sons and a friend who are in his employ) whose contracting business does some of their work at secure facilities. None of them are remotely famous, and all of them know that there are thousands more like them in the same boat. You get used to not knowing what your friends do, if you live in these parts....or if you grew up with a dad who had a security clearance and reported directly to the Secretary of the Treasury, but simply described himself as "an accountant" with no further details given.

So, Bandmate, spare us the snarkiness about other people's jobs, and the judgments about people always having their hand out? The folks I have alluded to above work hard for what they earn, and in the case of the federal employees, could earn a lot more in the private sector. You keep carping about what they "make". A lot of people in Washington (including some I've listed above) make their living trying to "make" you and me safer.
 
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dito is offline dito Post #90  July 15,2009, 5:55am
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neardc wrote :
And how would they know it was happening? Harm is not always readily apparent, and the consequences of it can also emerge over time. The ethical standards for the conduct of science are continuously reviewed in light of new knowledge and changes in context. Federally-funded scientists are now required to conform to those standards in order to receive funding. How would scientists be held accountable if they are funded directly as individuals? If they have to spend most of their time asking for handouts from individuals, when would they actually conduct science? How would there be any assurance of continuity or coordination of the scientific enterprise?

There can be laws and consumer watch dogs. Certain organizations would get money for them. You know like the ones at the grocery store or tv ads.
 
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