00J is offline 00J Post #61  August 14,2009, 12:46pm
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Lizzie you made a lot of great points! The only thing I question is how people haven't noticed the stupidity of Obama's suggestion that you shouldn't have to purchase health insurance until you have a need. Seriously, if that were the case why would anyone buy health insurance until they are sick? We pay for car insurance regularly for the event of an accident but we shouldn't have to pay for health insurance until one is sick enough to need it? Just stupid. Another point is why the concern for people who don't have health insurance but get health care? Where is the concern for people who don't have car insurance but when in an accident can't get the cars fixed for free?
 
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bigfincat is offline bigfincat Post #62  August 14,2009, 4:14pm
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00J wrote :
This is what I don't understand.... California is broke to the point the CA government had to issue IOU's on tax refunds. Pretty much every state government has demonstrated an inability to govern within a budget. Here in Colorado the unemployment agency alone can't even manage an efficient system in which it serves its customers (the people) in a timely manner. Then we have the Federal government who has never managed a program that doesn't require more money with increasing worse results (Department of Education is a great example). The most confusing part of it all is you have people complaining of the governments inability and inefficiencies on one hand yet wanting the government to provide health care on the other. Seriously, what in our governments history has suggested that a government run health care option can do anything but bleed more money from us with worse and worse results yearly? Have the American people become so lazy and complacent that they'd rather give money to the government to take care of them rather than use their earned money to take care of themselves? Sadly, I think so.
Have you noticed that every year an employer renegotiate rates with insurance companies & every year our premiums go up while covered services becomes more limited?? What you suggest will happen already IS happening hence the need for reform.

I have also heard that healthcare costs are expected to increase significantly over the next ten years. I have heard of no info to contradict that. This year costs supposdly rose by 12 %. At that rate we would paying insane rates for insurance while continually being rationed care.

The reform being spoken of is not an insurance reform but a pay rate restructuring.

Our elderly population continues to grow in numbers & there is no way that most of them could have ever earned enough money to pay for their care. That is because our compensation structure is set in the manner that it is.

Everyone that I hear from that is anti-reform is also anti-tax increase so how do we pay for increases in elderly individuals along with increase in healthcare cost without either reform or significant tax increase??
 
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hazmat is offline hazmat Post #63  August 17,2009, 4:24pm
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Preventative medicine is going to have to be a huge part of the plan.

If the US population had the same level of obesity that we had in 1991, we would save an estimated 1.4 Trillion dollars in associated health care costs. Enough to pay for the entire Obama plan.

We all know smoking, drinking, and obesity are bad for your health. We know it. Until we can curb those bad habits, healthcare costs are going to continue climbing and nothing will be able to save us.
 
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D_Lion is offline D_Lion Post #64  August 17,2009, 6:52pm
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[FONT=Arial]This is not correct … it is not established that smoking actually “costs” society … because smokers die earlier, they receive less Medicare and social security payments.
 
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hazmat is offline hazmat Post #65  August 17,2009, 8:51pm
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D_Lion wrote :
This is not correct … it is not established that smoking actually “costs” society … because smokers die earlier, they receive less Medicare and social security payments.

Smokers don't always die earlier, but they will have a lifetime of medical problems. And since smokers tend to be poor, they'll more than make up their possible shorter lifespans soaking Medicaid. And being predominantly poor, they won't get much in Social Security anyway.
 
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The1Tomcat is offline The1Tomcat Post #66  August 19,2009, 10:58am
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You Yanks are funny creatures some days...

First - My position is that it's immoral and un-Christian, etc etc to make money off of sick people. If you disagree then there's really nothing to discuss.

Second - Federal government run healthcare can work, does work in many first world countries, and why it hasn't been implemented in the US is simply due to greed by making money off of the sick and the fearful of becoming sick.

Third - Private insurance companies still exist and have a place after free* healthcare. Insurance benefits from employers become Dental Insurance, Massage/Physiotherapy, Semi-Private or Private rooms, Ambulance transportation, Orthopaedics.... All the things that keep a person healthy and keep them away from emergency medicine.

It's assinine to tout America as having the "best medical system in the world" since people who say that obviously haven't travelled and seen anyone elses system. Any system that either doesn't treat someone or gives a lesser standard of treatment for financial reasons or bankrupts that person can hardly be called the "best"

Illegal aliens shouldn't be covered btw... my opinion... they should get rounded up and kicked out and someone should really close up those gaping holes in your borders in the south. For a country that spends upteen trillion dollars on defence spending and can count the dimples on a golf ball from space... you'd think keeping out people crossing on foot through a desert would be possible.

*free - term relating to the average burden cost on a single person by having integrated taxes for healthcare.
 
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The1Tomcat is offline The1Tomcat Post #67  August 19,2009, 11:14am
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Let me caveat a previous statement...

The US does NOT have the best healthcare system in the world...

The US MAY have the best EMERGENCY response healthcare system in the world...

That means that if I'm in a car accident or I cut off an arm or some other form of trauma or acute illness like a heart attack... then yes I'd probably like to be in the US, and no you can't be denied service by law... although you can still be charged into bankruptcy for having your life saved.

As far as other things are concerned, like preventative medicine, the US has a pretty poor record when compared to most other first world countries.

That is all..
 
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passerine is offline passerine Post #68  August 19,2009, 12:05pm
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I agree with 1Tomcat, I don't understand what you're afraid of? A loss of liberty? Becasue the ability to go to a doctor or hospital and not worry about the costs seeems pretty free to me.

Greater costs? Because you spend more of GDP on healthcare than Canadians but you have less covered. Granted we have less specialists and special equipment but we don't demand MRI's on broken ankles and we have more general practitioners. We are slowly trying to improve wait times for those procedures. Having free health care doesn't mean people will go to the doctor for every little thing. It takes time to go see a doctor, time most people would rather spend doing something else. In Alberta there used to be a small nominal fee to go see a doctor ($20), that would help deter some people who don't need to see a doctor.

As mentioned many "fringe benefits" aren't covered by the government and we turn to private insurance. The U.S. is the only developed country in the world that has no government supported health care system.

What about access to water and to clean water? That's important, but why burden the tax payers with supporting people too lazy to get their own water and clean it themselves? So don't burden the people who are responsible with those who are too lazy and near-sighted to take care of themsleves and their families. Also get rid of health and saftey inspectors (people should look into these things themselves), education (if it's important enough you'll find time to teach your children or hire a private tutor), that FDA nonsense, the police, firemen, public transportation (if people want to be driven around they should buy a car).

And a quick side bar about public education being a right, that was set out by the UN. Public education as we know it didn't begin until the mid-late 1800's. When the founding fathers were kicking about most people were educated at home. COMPULSORY education was put in place to help assimilate immigrant children. There is a difference between having to go to school (for free) and having the choice whether or not to go to school (but still free). Maybe that's what Obama's going for. You have the right to free health care, but if you really want to (for whatever reasons) you can pay for it.

Ack! That's a lot of paranthese!
 
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HappyandLight is offline HappyandLight Post #69  August 19,2009, 12:39pm
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Bandmate wrote :
We have the best health care system in the world
******************

I am a fiscal conservative (very skeptical of government programs, taxing, etc etc) but I do not agree with this.

The best medical care is available only for those who can afford it. Those who can pay for it or get gold plated benefits.

Also, western medicine kills, I hate to say. Over 200,000 people die a year directly as a result of Western medicine (drugs/hospital stays/mistakes).

There is A LOT missing in our health care. I'll give an example: I had a diagnosis for low thyroid about two years ago. Since then, I got to work on the problem using natural means. That is, I did yoga postures specifically for the thyroid and took herbs to support my thyroid.

I go back two years later for another blood test (for another problem) and my thyroid is normal! I tell my young and nice physician what I did. She said "That's not possible, it cannot change". She was totally, utterly not interested in how I healed myself. I avoided taking a lifetime of drugs and she couldn't have cared less.

This is a major problem with the system. They are only interested in drugs and surgery. There is no education on how diet can cure/prevent many common diseases (diabetes, heart disease, hypertension, cancer). It's always the most expensive way.

I have a hard time wanting to support a system that does not give viable, inexpensive, natural knowledge on how to take care of ourselves and cure our disease. It's all out there, they just don't want to accept it.
 
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librarybabe is offline librarybabe Post #70  August 19,2009, 1:14pm
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D_Lion wrote:

This is misleading, I think.

Low paid jobs nearly always have group policies available to workers, they just do not provide the same level of employer-paid portion as professionals and union workers get. Consequently, many people appear not to buy into the group coverage. Really? I worked part-time for almost 10 years. No one offered me any health coverage. Even if that was not typical, doesn't it say something for the affordability of those policies if people with low paying jobs aren't buying into the group coverage even when they can?

Many people working retail do in fact have health cover; they are young people still covered by parents, old people covered by medicare, or eligible for subsidized care due to their income and / or having dependants. By many, you mean those 19 and under and those able to go to college full-time? I work in a college, I guarantee you in the current economic climate, a lot of graduates are going to have some period where they have no health coverage.
 
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