hogrally is offline hogrally Post #31  August 2,2009, 10:19pm
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Rand_011 wrote :
Tweet37 ... First off .. The trouble would be coming to any agreement on what 'baisc' medical coverage would be ... Compared to the private sector, Medicare is very rich coverage ...

Basic coverage on the private sector end would be ~5k ded. 80/20 after ded. for another 3k out of pocket ... Medicare has ~950 ded (based on a quarter IIRC, instead of year) and then 80/20 after for hospital and a ~100 ded for office visits then 80/20 after.

Currently taxes for medicare are at ~3% for roughly 50 mmillion people so if we had 300 million on it, we'd be looking at roughly 18% tax for medicare alone.
Ok...I am probably way out of line here but...
In the USA doesn't everyone have a the right to a "basic " amount of education? How did they figure out ...and come to an agreement on what that level should be. Anyone who made it thru their Senior year of high school should be able to figure out a common ground of what basic health care shoudl be. Then if they want to go to a community collge or and attend and Ivy League one than that is up to them to pursue that .
 
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Kestral is offline Kestral Post #32  August 3,2009, 12:30am
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I guess I'm still waiting for some kind of explanation as to why some of you folks feel that getting sick or being in an accident, and going bankrupt because of it, is totally acceptable...
 
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hazmat is offline hazmat Post #33  August 3,2009, 6:21am
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Kestral wrote :
I guess I'm still waiting for some kind of explanation as to why some of you folks feel that getting sick or being in an accident, and going bankrupt because of it, is totally acceptable...
No one is saying it's acceptable. But neither is taxing the rest of us, and burdening future generations with crushing debt, to provide universal health care for illegal aliens and people who choose to gamble and not purchase insurance.
 
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Rand_011 is offline Rand_011 Post #34  August 3,2009, 9:44am
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Kestral wrote :
I guess I'm still waiting for some kind of explanation as to why some of you folks feel that getting sick or being in an accident, and going bankrupt because of it, is totally acceptable...
So ... What you are saying is this ... If Joe doesn't want to buy health insurance and would rather spend his money else where ... He gets cancer ... Goes bankrupt and loses everything ... It is then my responsibility to bail him out??

I am sorry ... I belive in personal responsiblity ... Cover your own bases to the best of your ability ... For those unable to cover their own bases, private charities are your best option.

But for pete's sake ... Don't force me at gun point to subsidize your health care because you didn't give a darn in the first place.
 
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Rand_011 is offline Rand_011 Post #35  August 3,2009, 10:11am
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hogrally wrote :
Ok...I am probably way out of line here but...
In the USA doesn't everyone have a the right to a "basic " amount of education? How did they figure out ...and come to an agreement on what that level should be. Anyone who made it thru their Senior year of high school should be able to figure out a common ground of what basic health care shoudl be. Then if they want to go to a community collge or and attend and Ivy League one than that is up to them to pursue that .
Going through a quick recolecetion of our rights, I don't recall basic amount of education being listed ... Let's say it was listed ... Basic education in the 1700's is what ... Basic arithmetic and basic english skills?

Common ground of basic health care ... So ... I am assuming you finished at least your senior year of high school ... What do you beleive the common ground for health care should be? And, I'd like some details and costs sa well ...
 
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Jacquesne is offline Jacquesne Post #36  August 3,2009, 10:36am
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A quick note on the military; if you aren't certain why military force is a "public good" there's a bit of history that might be worth looking into. The United States has always been a military power in the world (with a couple exceptions early on, most notably the time our White House was burned down...). Even unused simply having a military force creates an economic bargaining point.

The U.S. is heavily reliant on trade for our economy. This is not new; it always has been. Our original government (not the Constitution, the Articles of Confederation) was pretty much limited to only dealing with trade. The idea of "noninterference" is pretty much a myth as far as our government's actual behavior has been since the beginning of our country.

Take a look at countries like Sweden. Sweden has been neutral and wealthy for a long time. There are plenty of countries (including us) with plenty of money in Sweden. Yet Sweden has a proportionally large military still based on conscription (although it has been reduced from its Cold War levels) and one of the highest GNP spending on defense in western Europe. They also have one of the highest standards of living.

I suppose you could argue such things are based on antiquated ideas and that once we become more peaceful the need for the military will vanish. Perhaps. I personally doubt it. My mind works in more of a strategy method; in chess you won't attack a pawn if your opponent is threatening your queen. Go is probably a better example where you cause your opponent to back off because of the threat you present. Nuclear weapons create this same situation; the Cold War idea where no one wants to attack because the price of doing so is too high.

When you're already defended it's easy to become complacent. You start to believe that because you're good now that defense is no longer necessary. History is full of examples of what happens when a civilization decides defense is no longer a priority (Rome, for example). It's not that you have to use it necessarily. But other civilizations, ones who want what you have, need to know that you have it.

And that's my speech on the military, who by no coincidence also provides my health care . See? I managed to link them together!

As for universal health care the problem conceptually I have with it is that people are not universally the same. We all have different needs depending on a million different factors. Trying to run a single organization designed to cater to all those needs is a nightmare.

Sure, it may work in smaller countries. Their populations are more homogeneous and beliefs are more in line with one another. Especially in collectivist cultures universal health care probably makes sense.

The United States is a big country. Not just population wise, but also simply in variety of culture and plain land area. The beauty of states is that each state can take a piece of that bigger whole and organize it based on the needs of those people. What is important to people in California is vastly different from what is important to people in, say, Georgia.

There's a reason why organizations delegate leadership, why there's a supervisor, a manager, and a CEO. The CEO can't effectively run everything on his/her own. I cannot see how a universal health coverage system can possibly work efficiently. Then again I can't see how our current federal government system can work efficiently trying the same concept on, well, everything. And, not surprisingly, our current federal government is nowhere near efficient. Imagine that .

Oh well. We fought a war over that idea and the states lost. That's what they get for not having enough defense!

Jacquesne
 
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hazmat is offline hazmat Post #37  August 3,2009, 5:38pm
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Need another reason why this plan is a bad idea at the wrong time ?

We're in a deep recession with unemployment at 10% nationwide, and as high as 15% in Michigan. This new plan, with requirements that all employers provide health care, even to part-time employees, and the tax hike that must come to pay for it, will keep companies from hiring and make those individuals with ideas about starting a business reconsider doing so. Job creation is the only way to put people back to work.

Look at the "cash for clunkers" fiasco. Imagine the government with their paws into every business, large and small, and every individual's health matters.

They couldn't oversee Wall Street, the postal service is billions in debt, Congress forces the military to spend billions on weapons they don't want and won't use, etc. They can't be trusted with our health.
 
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graceventually is offline graceventually Post #38  August 3,2009, 6:25pm
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"Cash for Clunkers" fiasco?? Ford's got its profits higher than the previous month in over two years, and the average new car purchased is getting at least 9 MPG more than the car traded in.....how is that a fiasco? Seems to me it's doing what it was supposed to do.
 
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bigfincat is offline bigfincat Post #39  August 3,2009, 6:26pm
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Did government mess up Medicare? Or did our population change over time making it cost more to care for the huge elderly population??

I don't see how we can blame gov't for our elderly care issues. Very few families could earn enough money to pay the medical bills of its elderly members.

When we have more elderly members than we did before it makes it necessary to continuously pull more taxes from the general population to subsidize medicare.

We need reform for medicare... & I am not hearing any alternative solutions for this. We need major overhaul. Not just minor tweaking.

& please don't come with savings accounts... as that money would never add up to enough to pay for medical bills for the elderly... or for any type of surgery that the younger population might have.

Doctors are going to be forced to charge less money because people will not be able to pay for care at the ever growing rates that we currently see. That would happen no matter what method we use to reform health care.

The only option other than subsidies is to deny care to a huge portion of our population.

Whatever the bill is going to be... we have to pay it.

Our elderly have set us up with the way of life that we enjoy. I am OK with paying that bill which would be a huge increase in taxes.

I would love to hear alternative solutions to our health care issues.
 
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bigfincat is offline bigfincat Post #40  August 3,2009, 6:32pm
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graceventually wrote :
"Cash for Clunkers" fiasco?? Ford's got its profits higher than the previous month in over two years, and the average new car purchased is getting at least 9 MPG more than the car traded in.....how is that a fiasco? Seems to me it's doing what it was supposed to do.
I agree.

Dealers would have been knocking their prices down much further had the government not offered this incentive. This is not hurting the dealers.

If the dealers get paid later then it is better than not at all.
 
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