Question: Why is socialism bad?


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tbesq is offline tbesq Post #31  June 19,2009, 12:44pm
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graceventually wrote :
Actually, tbesq, dwr's an Iraq war veteran; he's "been there done that".

And thank you, both of you, for your service .
Ah, thank you Grace. I had no idea.

Dwreese, belay my last . We all appreciate what you've done over there. I spent my Middle East purgatory in Bahrain and the Persian Gulf raiding smuggling vessels, but that's nothing compared to what you've had to do.
 
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kittencaboodle is offline kittencaboodle Post #32  June 19,2009, 1:02pm
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Thanks Tomcat for agreeing with me which of course means your right! lol! But seriously anyone who doesn't realize they are in the middle of a giant propaganda super-sized media dust bowl needs to get their head out of the commercial oven. \Everything can be chatastrophic is taken to extremes and that is why the best policy is to be knowledgable about as many concepts as possible so that you can take what's good and leave the rest behind. Demonizing socialism is the newest installment of fear tactics used to scare the public into supporting things they don't completely understand. Right now it's republicans grasping at straws and fighting to keep their line of hands out from emptying into someones pocket who might actually need it.
 
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graceventually is offline graceventually Post #33  June 19,2009, 1:03pm
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Umm., rand....Canadians donate to the charities of their choice too, as do many Europeans and others. No one stops them. I don't see the connection between your post and Tomcat's? Maybe there isn't one and I'm missing your point; sorry.
 
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charlie990 is offline charlie990 Post #34  June 19,2009, 1:13pm
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having grown up in a Britain when socialism was VERY strong and having greatly benefitted from that system (fabulous education..free healthcare superb public transport,inexpensive accomodation for company/public employees etc) I have to say it was horrifying to witness those real freedoms destroyed in the mid 80's ..Unions were broken, all public assets were sold out to the highest bidder for about 20c on the $...a TOTAL disaster ensued for all but about 2% of the populus ..The banks and financial industries have grown out of proportion ("assets"increased over 500% in last 12 yrs) and have disnefranchised and enslaved the public with huge personal debt ... its lead to great discontent and far worse..social disintegration..street violence...its now unsafe to walk most major cities at night as there are far too many desparate individuals who have no safety net..In all fairness..it DID hold up for 25yrs before collapsing...fortunes were made by the elite few.. "free market capitalism" is all about survival of the fittest .. those who know how to operate gain the greatest benefit at the expense of the majority .. reverse socialism is (US system) when industry and their police (the military) runs the government and becomes "too big to fail"... many of the once publicly owned systems in Uk now cost the taxpayers supstantially more $$ ..why ?? the assets were stripped and sold and surprise surprise it was found to be unprofitable ...public needs those services, so government was forced to bail out the new owners with taxpayer $$ to keep em running .. in a survival of the fittest situation the big players get bigger and the small one's get crushed...its is CRITICAL to understand where one's info comes from ..propaganda is a wonderful tool for despots as Adolf Hitlers regime discovered in Germany... the public at large can be fooled for a LONG time as long as basic needs are met .. We may not get healthcare..(a people in fear of personal bankruptcy are easy to manipulate) but we will likely get a $3 trillion "defence shield" militarising space... what you MUST ask is WHO are the true beneficiaries..and who owns the media which informs you...and I'll add ..many will find this offensive .. depends upon mindset .. people will ONLY see what they want to see ... Just how, exactly did the people of Germany allow thier governement to send them to destruction ?? were they all simply "evildoers"??..or COULD they have been living in illusion..??
 
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Rand_011 is offline Rand_011 Post #35  June 19,2009, 1:17pm
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graceventually wrote :
Umm., rand....Canadians donate to the charities of their choice too, as do many Europeans and others. No one stops them. I don't see the connection between your post and Tomcat's? Maybe there isn't one and I'm missing your point; sorry.
Ahh, you must be missing my point then ... I don't think I said anywhere that they do not support charities ... I did however say the government handles charitable events (read as welfare, social security and medicare) with a great deal more waste than many of the charitable orgnaizations around ... Thus, I am in favor of nixing the government and associated taxes from that duty.
 
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The1Tomcat is offline The1Tomcat Post #36  June 19,2009, 1:48pm
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Rand_011 wrote :
You see ... Under a free market system, I have the choice to help someone truly in need ... I can donate my money to the Red Cross (just an example) and other charitable organizations that efficiently help people.

Under a socialist system, I am forced to help anyone the government classifies as 'in need' ... I do not have the extra funds to donate to efficient charities ... Instead it is taken by beuracrats, who take a piece to pay their salaries, to pay the salaries of all the collectors of the tax, their benefits from healthcare to retirement ... Then, what is left is given to those that fall under whatever administration currently deems as 'in need'.

I am 100% positive that my monthly giving is used more effectively for causes that I support, than would be used under a socialist program.
I commend you on giving to charity... very socialist of you.

Under a communist system you would be forced to help anyone in need.

Under a democratic socialist system elected representatives of the people decide what programs to put in place and how much funding to give them. If you don't like what the government did, you have the opportunity to elect another government to change those systems.

I as a Canadian along with many other Canadians and Europeans give money to many charities (and blood to the Red Cross). I don't know how it works in the US but in Canada if you give anything over $5 to a non-profit charity you receive a tax receipt and get credit on your income tax return. Good incentive to give money if you make a lot of money and don't want to get charged income tax at the end of the year.

As for paying bureaucrats their salary, benefits, retirement fund, etc... Where do you think part of your charity money goes? Do you think the people who run charities work for free? There are still accountants, employees, managers to pay and part of your charitable contribution goes to their salary, benefits, retirement fund, etc... then what's left over gets to the people you want to help.

On top of that, we get to oversight again... do you really know where your money goes? There have been scandals with people in positions of power inside of charities diverting funds to their own pocket or very little making it to the person in need. If $1 feeds a child in Africa for a month and you give $20 are 20 children fed? Is that one child fed for 20 months? Or does $1 make it and $19 goes into other peoples pockets? Who knows? I don't. In theory it should be a lot harder to hide anything in the government because it is all public record because the people want to know where their tax dollars have been spent. Government employees should be paid a good wage and receive benefits so that there is little incentive to be corrupt... why risk a good job for a little short term profit? That's why police in Canada have an average wage of around $70,000+ and quite a few with overtime have wages approaching $100,000... same concept, why would a cop risk his employment even if he's being offered $100,000 to do something illegal.

Would you want your police service to be privately run? Why not give a corporation control of the police so they can manage it more efficiently and heck they can make a profit on it too. I'm sure they'll push to write more speeding tickets and have zero discretion. Everyone gets fined for everything so no one speeds and no one parks illegally etc etc.

Lastly, if 100,000 people give $5 to the Salvation Army for the mission of helping say homeless people in Dallas to see a doctor and get some medical help (just an off the top of my head example). They get $500,000 to help a lot of people. If a socialist government run program requires the population of Texas which I believe is about 26 million people, to give $1, that's $26 million to help homeless people. If Dallas only needs $500,000... then you also help out Austin, and every other city in the state... and your $5 donation is only necessary as a $1 donation and you've helped 10 times the amount of people.

My caveat to all this is that you as a free thinking, responsible, citizen have to be informed and on top of your leaders to make sure it's administered properly. That's where the responsibility part of having rights and freedoms comes in.
 
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The1Tomcat is offline The1Tomcat Post #37  June 19,2009, 2:22pm
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Rand_011 wrote :
Ahh, you must be missing my point then ... I don't think I said anywhere that they do not support charities ... I did however say the government handles charitable events (read as welfare, social security and medicare) with a great deal more waste than many of the charitable orgnaizations around ... Thus, I am in favor of nixing the government and associated taxes from that duty.
Point out the waste... where is all the excessive waste coming from?

Different programs in different countries have differing amounts of waste... don't point at Canada as an example of good socialist policy... we waste a LOT of money being far too lenient towards a lot of people.

I point towards Norway or Australia for my example of good socialist style policy. Very little waste for much larger reward from their programs... which is why they're rated higher than Canada as the best place in the world to live.
 
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Jacquesne is offline Jacquesne Post #38  June 19,2009, 2:38pm
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My understanding of the difference between communism and socialism seems to be different from yours, tomcat. Perhaps if I clarify a bit of what I'm referring to my other posts will make a bit more sense.

Communism, as a generalized theory (as there are many different types) posits that the source of inequality in any society is created by class divisions. If you look closely at Marxist philosophy it basically comes down to the idea that the "haves" prey upon the "have nots" and this is why the rich always control the poor.

Marx's idea was to eliminate "class" altogether. By creating a system where all people existed among the same socioeconomic class all people would be on equal ground politically. In a sense communism is actually the democratic ideal.

Socialism, however, does not attempt to create economic unity. Instead of everyone having the same amount of money the government doles out resources based on its judgment of what is best for the people. The idea is that a third party (in this case the government) has superior judgment than the people directly involved (the rest of us).

This concept is based on something that's sort of common sense; who has a better perspective of the "right" course of action in, say, a relationship dispute...one of the people involved in the fight or a third party? There's a reason we go to counselors and psychiatrists. We want an expert, third party opinion. By training people who's job it is to look at the "big picture" and be isolated from individual interest groups you have a system that, in theory, manages resources better than having individualist free-for-alls. In familial societies this form of government is particularly attractive as they're already accustomed to the idea of someone else making decisions for them (such as arranged marriages).

In my mind communism and socialism are very different systems. The reason they're often compared is because the end result is often the same. Why is that?

In order for communism to work there must be some sort of organization enforcing the equal economic status. That organization becomes the government and then slides into socialism as individuals in that government decide who is worthy of a bit more resources than other people. The socialist government then changes as a figurehead becomes the "great leader" or person most qualified to make the big decisions for the people. This leader then becomes the dictator and you end up with North Korea or China under Mao.

So to my way of thinking I was not talking about communism at all. Socialism is an idea of group ownership. Communism is an idea of economic equality. The two are not the same. Neither is viable in a practical realm, primarily for the personal power reasons I explained in my original post. Alliteration not intended .

Jacquesne

P.S. Federalist monarchy and constitutional monarchy are basically the same concept as a constitution creates a federation. During the creation of the U.S.'s constitution, for instance, the arguments for it were titled the "Federalist Papers." That being said a "federalist monarchy" is a more accurate term for the Canadian and British systems as a constitution alone does not create a federation (which is what the Canadian Commonwealth most certainly is, and as another poster mentioned, the constitution of Canada is relatively new).

P.P.S. Tomcat, you wrote "Socialism as I understand it attempts to give power for decision making to the maximum number of people (preferably all)." This is simply not true. In order for that to be true the general populace would have to have personal influence on the decisions of the government which in a socialist system they absolutely cannot have. If the government says that I need to have a hybrid car because they're good for the environment I have zero ability to counteract that decision on a personal level. I have no idea where you got this idea!

You then write to replace socialism with communism. Why? Socialism, by definition, refers to a system where a central organization controls virtually all aspects of the economy (the antithesis of capitalism). How, in any way, is this controlled by the people? The primary difference between socialism and communism is this.

Under communism, if I'm a McDonald's employee and you're a rocket scientist, I get paid the same exact amount as you do, drive the same cars, own the same sized house, etc. Under socialism your salary is determined and paid for by the government as is mine but we're paid according to how much we benefit the society (in this example we'll assume the rocket scientist is more valuable). In both situations the government determines where the resources go.

Which is the whole point. And why they fail.
 
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D_Lion is offline D_Lion Post #39  June 19,2009, 3:00pm
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Socialism is bad because:

I believe I should be rewarded for my effort. Those who are willing to work harder should receive greater reward. Take away the reward, for instance through excessive tax rates, and I may chose more leisure and less work. This dampens overall economic output, which is damaging to everyone.

An economy needs to offer outsize rewards to incentivize entrepreneurial risk-taking. Again, take away the reward opportunity and all of society loses the benefits which flow from relentless innovation.

People malinger when they are “given” benefit. Many US citizens believe that people on “welfare” are lazy, and do not want to work. Consequently there is idleness, dependency, and reduced economic performance – which exacerbates the dependency problem.

Individuals making free choices make better choices. Centrally-planned economies deal in large numbers, and by necessity can not incorporate the highly-specific motivations of individuals. This reduces utility.
 
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D_Lion is offline D_Lion Post #40  June 19,2009, 3:04pm
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The1Tomcat wrote :
I point towards Norway or Australia for my example of good socialist style policy.

You should be careful here.

Norway and Australia derive substantial income from depletion industries – oil and mining. Consequently, they can afford larger public benefits than their tax rates would allow for.

One can not assume that their systems would work as well without these income streams.
 
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