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neardc What year is it again?

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An economics professor at a local college made a statement that he had never failed a single student before but had once failed an entire class....
Nice anecdote, but there is no reason to believe that it actually ever happened (and in fact it's extremely unlikely that it did). This is one of those urban legends that has been circulating for well over a decade now....
- June 19th, 2009, 11:31 am
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tbesq wrote :
Here's one way: join the military and serve in a combat zone. When I was in the service, most of my income earned while overseas was tax-free. Also, find a state income tax-free state. I've lived in two, Florida and Texas. The system has loopholes; you just have to find them.
Actually, tbesq, dwr's an Iraq war veteran; he's "been there done that".

And thank you, both of you, for your service .
- June 19th, 2009, 01:01 pm
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Everyone who believes that socialism could work should read Ayn Rand Atlas Shrugged where few take care of many because people are punished for being productive and rewarded for doing nothing. Now that said, socialism is a great theory...theory. In practice it does not hold water because people are people, lazy, greedy, jealous, and out to get all we can get...perfect for capitalism. I agree that socialism has replaced communism as the "bad" ending everyone thinks is looming around the corner. Two things..1) Socialism is not communism a point missed by a couple of commenters here. and 2) socialistic tendencies are already in practice in this country and have been for a long time.
- June 19th, 2009, 01:49 pm
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saulgoode wrote :
Socialism means higher taxes, and fewer choices.

Socialism means more comfort, and fewer worries.

You trade wealth for complacency, and sacrifice free thought for peace of mind.

I see Socialism as sub-contracting your freedom to the gov't, then paying them to manage it for you.

You can't "quit" a socialist program. Once it's in place, it's there until it either collapses, or the gov't is over-thrown, either by arms, or by a massive, peaceful change in power structure.

At least with a free market you have choices. If you don't like BCBS, switch to United Healthcare.

But this requires thought and consideration, and some effort on your part, and it's this part that folks want to sub-contract to their leaders.


- Saul

Wealth for complacency
... yes in a fully socialist (communist) system that would be the case... in a democratic socialist system you are flat out wrong. Since a lot of American's class Canada and western Europe as socialists, ask any of them if they have the opportunity to become wealthy. I dare say we have just as much of a chance through hard work and smart decision making to be very rich under our economic systems as any American does.

Free thought for peace of mind... (communist=yes) having socialist like programs = no... Canadian, Australians, Europeans still choose their own doctors, can decide if they want various treatments, don't get excessive diagnostics, but don't get under diagnostics either and while you can sue for negligence, doctor's aren't afraid of being sued.

By a massive, peaceful change in power structure - I believe that happens every 4-8 years in the US... it's called an election. You don't like what the last guy did? Vote him out and get a new guy in after telling him you want something different.

You can't "quit" a socialist program - That's true... but once you have it you don't WANT to quit it... and what's more important, it can't quit YOU.

At least with a free market you have choices. If you don't like BCBS, switch to United Healthcare - See above statement... yes I can choose to pay for not 100% coverage with one guy or pay a little less for not 100% coverage with the other guy... but if I have a pre-existing condition, or I get sick and start costing them a lot of money, they can QUIT me... or charge me such exorbitant fees I might as well just hope I don't get sick. Insurance companies profit on the idea that if you have a lot of people, not all will be sick. Some will just pay and so long as the amount that aren't sick don't cost more than what everyone pays, you've made money. What could be better than having EVERYONE in the country, a whole population, paying into the exact same model. The only difference is that in the government it's not about making profit, it's about providing service. So managed correctly you will end up with more equipment, techonology, and faster service than you could ever get with 20 different private health insurers who's main focus is about gaining money and providing the least service.

Two things...

The free market -
In and of itself it sounds like a great idea... but then in and of itself so does communism. The problem is that when mega-corps have free reign and can completely police themselves and each other through competition what happens? Since it's all about money, profit margin, and ever increasing gains, companies start doing stupid things... like say outsourcing all production to a third world or cheap labour market. Look a how much of US infrastructure and production China owns already and where are the lower end manufacturing or customer service jobs that were traditionally in the US or Canada. I just had a baby and I can barely find any clothes, bottles, cribs etc that AREN'T made in China... I'd like nothing more than to buy US, Canadian, or European made items but over 90% I'd say have been outsourced to Asia with who knows what for quality control. That's just one example of the free market doing something that overall hurts.

Universal Healthcare -
Healthcare (in my opinion) is something that should be controlled by the government. It is too important a function to allow profiteering in. Before you jump on me as being a yuppy socialist Canadian you should know that I'm a dual citizen, my great grandfather was an American war hero in WW2 in the Pacific theatre with McArthur and my mom is a nurse who works half the year in Florida and half the year in Canada and knows both systems very very well. I have also lived a number of years of my life in Florida as well...

I thank God I was in Canada when I was diagnosed with kidney cancer in April. For those of you who are misinformed, there was no waiting for getting into diagnostics. I had 3 CT scans run within 8 hours, they found a tumor and 2 days later I was in surgery having it removed. I have had multiple followups from the surgeon, referral to an oncologist and will have monthly checkups for the first year, then at least every 6 months thereafter along with CT or MRI's to make sure the cancer doesn't come back. Total cost to me $0... thank God for universal government run healthcare, because none of the healthcare plans I was covered by in the US (and my mom being a healthcare worker had arguably great private insurance through work) would have covered nearly half as much. Even if they covered 90% of everything I'd still be paying well over $100,000 plus followup, plus in 5 years when they class me as cured do you think that any US health insurance plan will ever cover me now? Not a chance.

Of note we also have private insurance in Canada and benefits through work. Canada's universal healthcare doesn't cover absolutely everything. Private or semi-private rooms need to be paid for, various holistic and elective healthcare issues are not covered by the government. So we have choice in if we want a more premium service or if we just want to make it to living one more day, but either way you will get treatment and it will not bankrupt you.

Are there problems? Yes, there's a lot of stupid things that go on in Canada's healthcare system and I wouldn't advocate OUR system that has somewhat run amok for any other country. I do believe in moderate user fees, I do believe we are overtaxed, and I do believe that there should be a limit so that chronic abusers of the system get turned away.

Ask Australians who went from an American style system to a universal healthcare system with moderate user fees and see what most of them say. The government can't take it away because they would be out of office so fast their heads would spin because their population realized how big of a benefit it is to everyone. I lived in Australia for a year and had to use their system to see a doctor (I had travel insurance) and from what I saw and after talking with a lot of Aussies it seemed like a great system with little abuse and your choice of getting in quick and paying the whole fee up front and getting reimbursed by the government, or, waiting for a bit longer, paying a small $10 fee, and having the doctor's office bulk bill the government... your choice since you're so worried about choices.

All those commercials they air about how universal healthcare is bad... are sponsored by insurance companies... yes universal healthcare is VERY bad for them, they'll lose money and have to restructure. Is it bad for everyone else? No. That stupid one that has "Canadians" telling their horror stories of long waits and having to go to the US for treatment really ticks me off. Are there horror stories? Yes. Are there long waits? Depends, there can be for some things. But in the US are there horror stories? Yes. Are there long waits? Again, depends on the hospital/treatment since some are better than others because they're owned/run by all kinds of different organizations. A true horror story is being turned away at an emergency room while having a heart attack because you don't have insurance and then dying in the parking lot. THAT is NOT an urban legend. It happened at a Florida hospital and it was after a few incidents like that that they had to pass a law that no one can be turned away from the ER. They had to pass that law because the "company" was worried about "profit" not "healthcare".

But in either case... I can afford to go and buy a house this month and qualify for a mortgage instead of having to pay a doctor's bill this month... and that will help out the economy more than anything.

Last edited by The1Tomcat; June 19th, 2009 at 02:37 pm. Reason: I didn't think my post was long enough. :)
- June 19th, 2009, 01:51 pm
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Yes you are right, I should have clarified when I said that people who do nothing would benefit it was an extreme reference to the book more than the concept of socialism. There aer a lot of great ideas in socialistic gov't, especially democratic socialism. Complete socialism or (communist socialism) is what I was referring to since it was the ideal a lot of people seamed to be talking about. Like I said before, there are a lot of socialist ideals at work in the US gov't today and most of them are for the good of the country. People are afraid of change, and people are afraid of what they don't know. But if you look at the crime rates and drug abuse rates in Canada and England they are doing something right.
- June 19th, 2009, 02:05 pm
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Oh one more quick thing. I still believe in a free market. I believe that there should be controls to curb some of the abuses we have seen the big coorporation commiting lately (Walmart anyone?!) but for the most part I have to side with the idea that people will inherently try to succeed if allowed to reap the benefits of their success and that their success will help others to succeed (generally speaking) controlling enterprise becomes too close to communism to me where the gov't decides who, what, where, and when to produce.
- June 19th, 2009, 02:10 pm
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neardc What year is it again?

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Great post, Tomcat. Very informative; thanks for taking the time to make it.
- June 19th, 2009, 02:10 pm
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Everyone who believes that socialism could work should read Ayn Rand Atlas Shrugged where few take care of many because people are punished for being productive and rewarded for doing nothing. Now that said, socialism is a great theory...theory. In practice it does not hold water because people are people, lazy, greedy, jealous, and out to get all we can get...perfect for capitalism. I agree that socialism has replaced communism as the "bad" ending everyone thinks is looming around the corner. Two things..1) Socialism is not communism a point missed by a couple of commenters here. and 2) socialistic tendencies are already in practice in this country and have been for a long time.
Agreed.

For the record I'm not advocating "socialism" or a push towards Marxist philosophy. Doomed to failure eventually.

I know this is a "those who know, know" and the rest don't care to know and buy propaganda in the bulk pack at Costco.

My whole purpose of this thread was to get out in the open that it's OBVIOUS propaganda. Calling someone a socialist is a bad thing? You're basically telling someone "You care about your fellow man and want to work for the betterment of others" and making it a bad thing. Obama isn't a socialist... heck no American politician is a socialist. Some have a few more socialist-like ideas... and that's a good thing because it means they care about "Joe the plumber" and the common every day man. I'd rather my elected official care about me, the voter (his boss), than about the mega-corp that stuffed $1mil in his campaign fund...

My theory -
Communism is doomed to fail, due to greed. (extreme socialism)
Capitalism is doomed to fail, due to greed. (extreme greed)

So that leaves a blend somewhere in the middle which is where the US is actually at and has been for a long long time. I think the balance will eventually shift centrist-left like it did in Canada after our Prime Minister Mulroney sold us out (to the American's mostly, definition of irony lol, but better than that... the American's then sold themselves out to the Chinese heh. just kiddin).

Also I'd just like to note for those out there like txbuddy that think that Canadians are out to change you and tell you what to do... I as an American/Canadian do not vote in US elections even though I'm registered in Florida. (though I wish I had voted in 2000 heheh). The reason for this is that my primary residence and place I was born is in Canada and I don't believe I should have a direct effect on another people, even it it is "just" one vote.

That said, freedom of speech and expression are in both countries constitutions... so if I can help others to understand both sides of a story so they can make their own informed decision, all the better... but then maybe I have a few socialist tendencies and maybe that makes me a bad guy.
- June 19th, 2009, 02:17 pm
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neardc wrote :
Great post, Tomcat. Very informative; thanks for taking the time to make it.
Thanks neardc.

It's just funny because being outside of the US you get perspective on the propaganda war that goes on inside the US. I get a blend of American television/advertising and Canadian/world television/advertising.

What's reported on the CBC or BBC is a lot different to what's reported on CNN or MSNBC... But then Fox News makes no apologies for being a strict propaganda machine lol which is admirable in the concept of free speech if not the concept of truth in reporting.
- June 19th, 2009, 02:34 pm
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You see ... Under a free market system, I have the choice to help someone truly in need ... I can donate my money to the Red Cross (just an example) and other charitable organizations that efficiently help people.

Under a socialist system, I am forced to help anyone the government classifies as 'in need' ... I do not have the extra funds to donate to efficient charities ... Instead it is taken by beuracrats, who take a piece to pay their salaries, to pay the salaries of all the collectors of the tax, their benefits from healthcare to retirement ... Then, what is left is given to those that fall under whatever administration currently deems as 'in need'.

I am 100% positive that my monthly giving is used more effectively for causes that I support, than would be used under a socialist program.
- June 19th, 2009, 02:36 pm
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