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dito's Avatar

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Also this is for jcd and jaque:


(first vid not second.)



Last edited by dito; July 1st, 2009 at 05:35 pm.
- July 1st, 2009, 05:33 pm
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dito, what does that make you? A citizen? Someone who pays their taxes? A consumer? I'm not sure I understand your question. Are you saying just because you don't want to pay for things you shouldn't have to? Huh?

And how does saying we're a republic and not a democracy apply to anything we've discussed so far? Under a republic do the individual members of society get to chose which laws and taxes they want to obey and which they don't? What exactly is your point?

I'm honestly confused. We don't seem to be talking about the same thing here. Could you be a bit more specific? Thanks!
- July 1st, 2009, 05:44 pm
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Could someone summarize those videos for me? I had trouble watching more than 5 minutes of the rhetoric and certainly wasn't going to spend 20 minutes. I would, however, like to know what arguing over social programs and speech rights have to do with libertarianism.

Well, except for the wonderful interview with good 'ole Ron Paul who again repeats the concept that the "free market" solves everything. There's no explanation of how exactly it does that.

I don't understand how anyone can say that the government will do X thing badly but a private organization doing the same thing will do it better. That doesn't make any logical sense. Both groups are run by people. Is there something inherent in a crook being in congress or Enron that makes him more or less corrupt in one area than another?

The key difference, however, is that the government is somewhat accountable to the people. Believe it or not a corrupt politician can be voted out or a corrupt judge impeached. You can't do anything about a corrupt CEO.

Now comes the argument "well, someone else will come along and put his corruption out of business!" Seriously? That's your reasoning? A high school economics book might disagree.

We all know that corruption is weeded out by small business. That's why criminal organizations and monopolies do so poorly and small businesses rule the world. Right?

You can't just say "oh, that's because the government is interfering." That's not why. When we adopted a laissez-faire economic structure small businesses didn't rule...Rockefeller did. You think anything computer related wouldn't be owned by Microsoft right now without antitrust laws? Really?

Power congeals. If left alone those who seek power try to put it as centralized as possible so they can control the most of it. I agree with the libertarian idea of decentralization but it's not a libertarian idea. It's the United States's idea of having multiple individual states that had their own sets of rules and power. It was the United States before Lincoln decided to or was forced to violently demolish the sovereignty of the individual states.

But simply saying the problem is the "government" and letting the power pool in the private sector isn't going to fix a durn thing. It would be nice if that were the problem. But it really isn't. Sorry.

Jacquesne
- July 1st, 2009, 06:07 pm
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Jacquesne wrote :
dito, what does that make you? A citizen? Someone who pays their taxes? A consumer? I'm not sure I understand your question. Are you saying just because you don't want to pay for things you shouldn't have to? Huh?

And how does saying we're a republic and not a democracy apply to anything we've discussed so far? Under a republic do the individual members of society get to chose which laws and taxes they want to obey and which they don't? What exactly is your point?

I'm honestly confused. We don't seem to be talking about the same thing here. Could you be a bit more specific? Thanks!
Guess we are talking about different things...

Jacquesne wrote :
Could someone summarize those videos for me? I had trouble watching more than 5 minutes of the rhetoric and certainly wasn't going to spend 20 minutes. I would, however, like to know what arguing over social programs and speech rights have to do with libertarianism.

Well, except for the wonderful interview with good 'ole Ron Paul who again repeats the concept that the "free market" solves everything. There's no explanation of how exactly it does that.

I don't understand how anyone can say that the government will do X thing badly but a private organization doing the same thing will do it better. That doesn't make any logical sense. Both groups are run by people. Is there something inherent in a crook being in congress or Enron that makes him more or less corrupt in one area than another?

The key difference, however, is that the government is somewhat accountable to the people. Believe it or not a corrupt politician can be voted out or a corrupt judge impeached. You can't do anything about a corrupt CEO.

Now comes the argument "well, someone else will come along and put his corruption out of business!" Seriously? That's your reasoning? A high school economics book might disagree.

We all know that corruption is weeded out by small business. That's why criminal organizations and monopolies do so poorly and small businesses rule the world. Right?

You can't just say "oh, that's because the government is interfering." That's not why. When we adopted a laissez-faire economic structure small businesses didn't rule...Rockefeller did. You think anything computer related wouldn't be owned by Microsoft right now without antitrust laws? Really?

Power congeals. If left alone those who seek power try to put it as centralized as possible so they can control the most of it. I agree with the libertarian idea of decentralization but it's not a libertarian idea. It's the United States's idea of having multiple individual states that had their own sets of rules and power. It was the United States before Lincoln decided to or was forced to violently demolish the sovereignty of the individual states.

But simply saying the problem is the "government" and letting the power pool in the private sector isn't going to fix a durn thing. It would be nice if that were the problem. But it really isn't. Sorry.

Jacquesne
You don't summarize your posts do you? Didn't read the whole post. But why can't the government even run a monopoly like the post office? They don't have competition yet they are bankrupt? How is that so?
- July 1st, 2009, 07:30 pm
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A government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take everything you have.
Kit Carson
- July 9th, 2009, 03:30 pm
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Duh, the Post Office is not a monopoly. (UPS, Fed-Ex, etc.) USPS is losing $ because of technology; i.e., e-mail, cell phones/text, and competition from private shipping companies who may charge more but can get it to you faster plus better service; they can even pick it up from your home or business.
Who knows "snail mail" may go the way of the telegraph. It's currently an alternate way of communication and commerce becoming less used due to technology.
Who still pays bills by mail anyway? Those who don't have access to computers &/or people who don't like change or want to change.
In America our wealthy society has plenty of computers even in lower socioeconomic homes.

Last edited by kelly10; July 31st, 2009 at 12:48 am. Reason: spelling
- July 31st, 2009, 12:42 am
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kelly10 wrote :
Duh, the Post Office is not a monopoly. (UPS, Fed-Ex, etc.) USPS is losing $ because of technology; i.e., e-mail, cell phones/text, and competition from private shipping companies who may charge more but can get it to you faster plus better service; they can even pick it up from your home or business.
Who knows "snail mail" may go the way of the telegraph. It's currently an alternate way of communication and commerce becoming less used due to technology.
Who still pays bills by mail anyway? Those who don't have access to computers &/or people who don't like change or want to change.
In America our wealthy society has plenty of computers even in lower socioeconomic homes.
USPS is a monopoly ... The federal law prohibiting other companies from distributing regular mail was put into place to knock the Pony Express out of busines (since the Pony Express was delivering mail for less cost than the federal program, and we can't have that) ... The law, as far as I know, is still in place today ... I have not read anywhere that it was repealed.
- July 31st, 2009, 10:07 am
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The1Tomcat,

I think one of the concerns is most Americans, when thinking of Socialism go right to Marx or Stalin in their brains. And then they get caught into the emotional buzzword/fear of it. And yes, the emotions they feel aren't really Socialism but communism. They (we) also don't understand the difference between Socialism and Social Democrat. Which I think most of Western Europe is more Social Democratic than Socialist, but I might be wrong about that. Maybe you can enlighten me.

Many of those who are protesting the socialized medicine at this time, and accusing Obama of being Socialist, in my most humble opinion, those who stand to lose alot if there is any change in our medical system as it is. They are the politicians who are receiving kickbacks from the medical lobbyists, the lobbyists themselves, or the insurance company and pharmaceutical company executives who are gaining a lot at the rest of our expense. I truly believe that as the change takes place, the people would say, "What were we so afraid of? This is great!" And yes, I have friends and family in Europe who are all kind of mystified as to what all the apprehension is about. If every country in the civilized world has universal medicine EXCEPT the US, does that not raise some questions for us all as to where the resistence is coming from? And I would say follow the paper trail of the money and we will soon find out as to why!!
- July 31st, 2009, 09:59 pm
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chapgirl wrote :
The1Tomcat,

I think one of the concerns is most Americans, when thinking of Socialism go right to Marx or Stalin in their brains. And then they get caught into the emotional buzzword/fear of it. And yes, the emotions they feel aren't really Socialism but communism. They (we) also don't understand the difference between Socialism and Social Democrat. Which I think most of Western Europe is more Social Democratic than Socialist, but I might be wrong about that. Maybe you can enlighten me.

Many of those who are protesting the socialized medicine at this time, and accusing Obama of being Socialist, in my most humble opinion, those who stand to lose alot if there is any change in our medical system as it is. They are the politicians who are receiving kickbacks from the medical lobbyists, the lobbyists themselves, or the insurance company and pharmaceutical company executives who are gaining a lot at the rest of our expense. I truly believe that as the change takes place, the people would say, "What were we so afraid of? This is great!" And yes, I have friends and family in Europe who are all kind of mystified as to what all the apprehension is about. If every country in the civilized world has universal medicine EXCEPT the US, does that not raise some questions for us all as to where the resistence is coming from? And I would say follow the paper trail of the money and we will soon find out as to why!!
The current bill in the house sure looks pretty good to me! http://www.liberty.edu/media/9980/at...ama_072909.pdf
- August 1st, 2009, 10:10 am
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I can't believe this conversation is happening. What's wrong with socialism?
Our fore fathers' died to escape from it.
I will not betray them.

Today we use the word "socialism".
The system is the same as old European feudalism. The rich guy in the castle gets to tell everyone else what to do, what to think, what part of the universe he gets to use, with who. The rich guy gets to decide who lives and who dies. and when. by his mood.

My ancestors fled europe. So did yours.
- August 7th, 2009, 11:23 pm
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