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dito dito is offline
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kittencaboodle wrote :
I didn't say I wasn't willing to pay for my education that's why I am. What I was saying is that I won't be contributing to the housing market, or much to the economy for quite awhile. The biggest chunk of money coming from the investment of my education is the banking system. I'm just saying is that technology has effectively taken over mass production, it is an information and service generation right now. Without being trained with the information technology skills to run current technology manufacturing jobs are becoming a thing of the past. The age of American industrialism is past. 70% of the people I go to school with are transplanted because of factory shutdowns. And they are not paying for their education, we are.
Our phony service sector economy is done for. We borrow money from China then turn around and buy stuff from China. How long do you think that will work? Until we start producing stuff again we are done for.
- June 22nd, 2009, 02:55 pm
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dwreese182 dwreese182 is offline
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Bandmate wrote :
Two questions,why should you not bear the burden of your education ? why is it anyone else's responsability to pay for your education so you can get a good job?
I'll agree with you to an extent. I don't believe anyone but the individual should pay for secondary schooling. I, however, feel that paying taxes for k-12 is a good thing. I think a general education helps the community for the better. If the lower class had to directly pay for schooling, enrollment would drop and we would have a huge drop in literacy and there is no way you can deny that. I don't think that you could explain why that would be a good thing either BUT I could be wrong.
- June 22nd, 2009, 03:19 pm
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fearlesscrusader fearlesscrusader is offline
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The most basic reason is, when somebody gets something without earning it, somebody else earned it without getting it. Socialism works until you run out of other people's money. Sure we love it when the gum'mint gives us something for nothing, but it doesn't feel so good when the gum'mint is taking from us, particularly at gunpoint. Everybody says, "Don't tax you, don't tax me; tax that fellow behind the tree!" Doesn't work well long, does it?
- June 22nd, 2009, 03:34 pm
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Rand_011 Rand_011 is offline
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I disagree with regards to enrollment among the lower class if there was no free education ... As a general rule of thumb, people appreciate what they pay for over what is given to them for free ...

Paid for education would be attainable for anyone that sought it ... Parents that don't care for it, won't seek it ... Kids that don't seek it (and if their parents are forcing it upon them) won't get it.

Too many parents use schools as a glorified baby sitter ... teachers need to be able to teach children again ... Such will not happen under the public system ... Under a private system parents will have an incentive to be active in their child's education sicne they are paying for it (in some manner).
- June 22nd, 2009, 03:40 pm
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passerine passerine is offline
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Socialism is more an economic theory than political. The view is that capitialism puts wealth into the hands of a few. Socialists adovocate greater government control of the economy as a way to create equality among the masses. A socialist government can be dictatorial or democratic. Government control can also extend to social programs such as compulsory education, health care, unemployment insurance. Opinions on socialism really depend on what you believe is the governments role in society and the economy. I think because America has been founded on a pinciple that is pro-free market and that siad market creates the oppurtunity for anyone to achieve great wealth if they put the work in. Socialism could be contrused as carrying those who don't deserve it (the lazy sponging off the hard working) or conversely some view it as a way of helping those who are unable to help themselves. I am Canadian myself and we are what is called a mixed economy some of our industries (healthcare) are under public control others (lumber, oil) are privately controled.

A final note on possible sources of hostility from America. For the better part of the last century there has been a potrayal of communism in the states (and other parts of the western world) as the antithesis of the American way of life. The hostility that was created about communism may simply be being transferred to its cousin socialism in the American psyche.
- June 22nd, 2009, 04:06 pm
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kittencaboodle wrote :
Deliberation and pontification are for fools also yet alas we are here!

Self entitlement is for the narcisssistic
- June 22nd, 2009, 04:23 pm
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dwreese182 wrote :
I'll agree with you to an extent. I don't believe anyone but the individual should pay for secondary schooling. I, however, feel that paying taxes for k-12 is a good thing. I think a general education helps the community for the better. If the lower class had to directly pay for schooling, enrollment would drop and we would have a huge drop in literacy and there is no way you can deny that. I don't think that you could explain why that would be a good thing either BUT I could be wrong.

There is an economic adage that says the cost of something will rise to level of the money available to pay for it,there was a time when it was possible for somone to actualy work their way through college,then government decided to throw big pile of money into the mix and what ya know....the cost went up.
- June 22nd, 2009, 04:26 pm
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graceventually graceventually is offline
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Rand_011 wrote :
I disagree with regards to enrollment among the lower class if there was no free education ... As a general rule of thumb, people appreciate what they pay for over what is given to them for free ...

Paid for education would be attainable for anyone that sought it ... Parents that don't care for it, won't seek it ... Kids that don't seek it (and if their parents are forcing it upon them) won't get it.

Too many parents use schools as a glorified baby sitter ... teachers need to be able to teach children again ... Such will not happen under the public system ... Under a private system parents will have an incentive to be active in their child's education sicne they are paying for it (in some manner).
It's not as though young children are capable of making a decision about school. If parents don't seek to provide them with an education, we need a system with checks and balances (i.e. social services, truant officers) to get kids to school for as many years of K - 12 as possible. Since failing to get a high school diploma is almost an express ticket to poverty, we have an interest as a society in a free and mandatory education. (Which doesn't mean it can't improve - clearly it needs an overhaul in some communities).
- June 22nd, 2009, 08:10 pm
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Faira Faira is offline
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Rand_011 wrote :
I disagree with regards to enrollment among the lower class if there was no free education ... As a general rule of thumb, people appreciate what they pay for over what is given to them for free ...

Paid for education would be attainable for anyone that sought it ... Parents that don't care for it, won't seek it ... Kids that don't seek it (and if their parents are forcing it upon them) won't get it.

Too many parents use schools as a glorified baby sitter ... teachers need to be able to teach children again ... Such will not happen under the public system ... Under a private system parents will have an incentive to be active in their child's education sicne they are paying for it (in some manner).
How is paid-for education attainable for anyone that seeks it if a family has to choose between paying the rent and making sure that the kids are fed?

And then, under your system, the kids don't go to school...they can't get jobs where they can make a living wage, if they can get a job at all...they end up living in poverty and having to choose between paying the rent and making sure the kids are fed...

There's a reason why poverty is a cycle, why it spans generations, and why it's very, very difficult for people to break free of it.

And please don't tell me that, "If they were just willing to work harder, they could get out of it."

The American Dream doesn't exist anymore.
- June 22nd, 2009, 10:07 pm
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The1Tomcat The1Tomcat is offline
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Bandmate wrote :
Yeah well that's all fine and dandy but you can't run a country on it now can you...i ahve no desire to live in a village,beat my clothes on the rocks and hope that nobody is peeing upstream from where i'm drinking from

Further to other's comments...

Right now, I could quit working, pretend I've got some kind of fatigue condition that is not allowing to find employment and apply for welfare... the government would support me in Canada and I'd be able to eat and live under a roof.

Mind you, I'd be eating no name brand mac and cheese as a staple, I'd live in a squalid rental property in a high crime area. The amount of money would be barely enough to cover rent and food... owning a car would be out of the question, maybe I might be able to afford basic cable if I'm lucky and scrimp on my measly government cheque each month.

So where's the incentive to work in all that? The government will make sure I survive and there's still shelters and food banks run by various charities...

The incentive is in wanting a better life than miserable squalid conditions. I can work and attain better education and sacrifice and have more luxuries and happiness. It's a very small minority that either choose to live for "free" as in off other people's taxes.

For education... if the government helps empower someone to achieve a higher education in a sector that's needed... chances are because a) I had free choice to choose that education and b) I put the time and effort into it to pass regardless of who pays and c) Like above, I want to attain more personal wealth.... there's my incentives for everything. Plus the government/business now has a skilled worker, who will produce more tax revenue for the government (along with recouping the cost of educating him in the first place), has a higher wage, and better employability. A win for everyone, the government, business, and most importantly the individual. What's not to get?

Someone should go research medical cost per individual between Canada and the US... I think you might find something interesting in those figures.
- June 23rd, 2009, 05:40 am
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