Energy: Supply and demand, pricing, and policy.


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D_Lion is offline D_Lion Post #1  June 6,2009, 8:39am
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Jcd1968 wrote, in response to Bandmate’s assertion that [I guess] a carbon-tax will result in utility bills of “several hundred dollars a month”:
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Bandmate is offline Bandmate Post #2  June 6,2009, 9:47am

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[quote=D_Lion;633404]Jcd1968 wrote, in response to Bandmate’s assertion that [I guess] a carbon-tax will result in utility bills of “several hundred dollars a month”:
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D_Lion is offline D_Lion Post #3  June 6,2009, 10:14am
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Bandmate,
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Bandmate is offline Bandmate Post #4  June 6,2009, 12:12pm

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[quote=D_Lion;633456]Bandmate,
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jcd1968 is offline jcd1968 Post #5  June 6,2009, 5:54pm
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D_Lion,

I agree that the price of carbon based energy can be offset by improvements in productivity of carbon based resources and in improved efficiency in energy consumption. Improvements in efficiently burning carbon based resources will not stem the tide. Taken the factors you mentioned into account, oil production will peak around 2037, and then experience a drastic drop, eventually running out by the end of this century. But, I think it is really a moot point considering where we are verifiably headed. 20 years ago there was good reason to doubt global warming was a threat. Today, it is obvious that the threat is real. I am willing to concede that we don’t really know the impact humanity is having on global warming, but my opinion, based on self-education, is that we are having a very real effect. The continued use of carbon based energy (i.e. combustion) will only hasten the effect.

I also agree that, currently, there is not enough demand for renewable energy to make it cost-competitive with carbon based energy. But, we do have the technology, and with R&D invested in improving renewable resources. It will become competitive. As I stated in my previous paragraph, I believe failing to invest in renewables will have drastic consequences.

I don’t understand how moving our nation from a reliance on carbon to clean energy will result in lowering the competitive advantage of labor. We require energy to produce goods. In that respect, what does it matter if the energy is combustible or renewable? The labor force which is currently involved in carbon-based can transition to clean energy. When Henry Ford invented the production line (which decreased the amount of labor involved in producing any good), did it have a negative impact on the competitive advantage of US labor, or did it provide us with a greater advantage? Technologies change. We either change with them or fail.

Finally, I do agree, in general terms with your statement on taxing energy. Personally, I’d like to dream of a future involving a “flat tax” rate. But, I realize it just isn’t realistic at this point in our history.

Bandmate,

As the man said, “You may say that I’m a dreamer, but I’m not the only one. I hope someday you’ll join us…”

I hope I didn’t disappoint you with my “creative responses”. Since progress has always been the property of those who could imagine a better world, I take this as a compliment. I am certain I did not misunderstand what you meant.

Although it is off the topic of this thread: In my opinion, the current deficit is not acceptable. Not by any means. I can’t think of a single person who believes otherwise. It has certainly been a wake up call. Irresponsible corporations and irresponsible individuals have resulted in the recent economic crisis. Fighting an unnecessary war and choosing to police the world created the current national debt, as well as various irresponsible government spending. Each person in this country has contributed, in one way or another, to these two separate problems.
 
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D_Lion is offline D_Lion Post #6  June 6,2009, 7:36pm
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jcd1968 wrote :
I don’t understand how moving our nation from a reliance on carbon to clean energy will result in lowering the competitive advantage of labor. We require energy to produce goods. In that respect, what does it matter if the energy is combustible or renewable? The labor force which is currently involved in carbon-based can transition to clean energy.

Because higher-cost energy increases the cost of any activity conducted in the US, with energy-intensive industries suffering the most. This will provide additional impetus to move more jobs overseas, and to import more products, and raw materials further up the value chain. Admittedly, this is not a factor relative to western Europe and Japan, but it is relative to China, India, probably eastern Europe, and the south and central American nations which are not onboard with curbing emissions.
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jcd1968 is offline jcd1968 Post #7  June 6,2009, 8:34pm
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D_Lion wrote :
Because higher-cost energy increases the cost of any activity conducted in the US, with energy-intensive industries suffering the most. This will provide additional impetus to move more jobs overseas, and to import more products, and raw materials further up the value chain. Admittedly, this is not a factor relative to western Europe and Japan, but it is relative to China, India, probably eastern Europe, and the south and central American nations which are not onboard with curbing emissions.

Curbs on US emissions not applied globally amount to a tax on US citizens to transfer monies to poorer nations. This is transnational socialism. If everybody plays by the same rules, there would be no change in competitive advantage (indeed, our heavy industry should benefit, due to increased transportation costs.)
Those are all very good and valid points. From these statements, can I assume you believe Western Europe, Japan - basically, all 1st and 2nd world nations - could suffer under the same possible hurdles as the US? Considering this financial position? It would be dishonest to say one, quick solution will solve everything. There are pitfalls to be considered. There are also advantages. Being able to survive as the human race, I think is the biggest advantage. Being able to maintain the quality of life we share is another advantage. That can not be done without energy! Seriously, although I have always been environmentally minded. I have also, until recently, seen that as a personal choice rather than a social necessity. To me, the real threat of global warming has changed it into a social necessity.

Unfortunately, you are correct. Not everyone plays by the same rules. This is where diplomacy comes in. We are a world power. We are still the primary world power - not just militarily, but economically. We, as the United States, have more influence than any other single nation in the world. Convincing 3rd world nations, where the majority of citizens barely have enough to eat, to invest their limited resources in clean energy is not going to be easy. But, it is an extreme necessity. I think the best way to do this is to educate those nations regarding the risk, offer reasonably implementable solutions, and, most importantly, lead by example.We, as a nation have not lost all of the respect we have had...not yet.
 
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Bandmate is offline Bandmate Post #8  June 7,2009, 5:02pm

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jcd1968 wrote :
Those are all very good and valid points. From these statements, can I assume you believe Western Europe, Japan - basically, all 1st and 2nd world nations - could suffer under the same possible hurdles as the US? Considering this financial position? It would be dishonest to say one, quick solution will solve everything. There are pitfalls to be considered. There are also advantages. Being able to survive as the human race, I think is the biggest advantage. Being able to maintain the quality of life we share is another advantage. That can not be done without energy! Seriously, although I have always been environmentally minded. I have also, until recently, seen that as a personal choice rather than a social necessity. To me, the real threat of global warming has changed it into a social necessity.

Unfortunately, you are correct. Not everyone plays by the same rules. This is where diplomacy comes in. We are a world power. We are still the primary world power - not just militarily, but economically. We, as the United States, have more influence than any other single nation in the world. Convincing 3rd world nations, where the majority of citizens barely have enough to eat, to invest their limited resources in clean energy is not going to be easy. But, it is an extreme necessity. I think the best way to do this is to educate those nations regarding the risk, offer reasonably implementable solutions, and, most importantly, lead by example.We, as a nation have not lost all of the respect we have had...not yet.

I see...you beleive in global warming...explains alot.
 
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graceventually is offline graceventually Post #9  June 7,2009, 5:29pm
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And the fact that you don't, doesn't? The evidence is overwhelming, and you accuse liberals of closing their eyes to the facts?

Before we started seeing some of the changes in Antartica and Greenland, I thought that maybe global warming was an issue where people of good faith could agree to disagree. But no more.
 
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