What makes a man or woman “fit” for military service?


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D_Lion is offline D_Lion Post #1  May 17,2009, 4:16pm
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In the “reverce racisum” (sic) thread, Jacquesne wrote:

“On one hand women are welcomed in the military. On the other hand they are rarely accepted by their male counterparts especially in combat jobs. One of the reasons for this is that the standards between men and women are different; a perfect score for a man requires more physical strength than for a woman, even on things that honestly should be close to equal like run time. This creates a resentment from the men who have trouble accepting that the woman in their unit is going to be able to keep up and creates a division because of her special treatment.
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tbesq is offline tbesq Post #2  May 17,2009, 4:26pm
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Depending on what the task is, physical prowess is definitely important to ensure mission success. There is a lot more bureaucracy in the military than people think, but depending on what branch you're in and where you're assigned it can be important.
 
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Rand_011 is offline Rand_011 Post #3  May 18,2009, 8:44am
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From an outsider's perspective ... I'd say that for many aspects, women may be as good or better ... However, we can take an example to the extreme ... A 5'4 woman that weighs in at 140 or so is going to have about no chance picking up her unconscious squad mate that is 6'0 and weighs in at 200 or so.

Even in the example listed ... If a local is friendly, it will make no difference, but if unfriendly or neutral, a man of average ht/wt will garner far more respect than a woman of average ht/wt.

Along the same lines that women in the police force have to take different measures (or so my friend tells me, she is about 5'2 and maybe 140 or so).
 
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tbesq is offline tbesq Post #4  May 18,2009, 9:01am
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I was in the Navy, but did train with other branches of the Armed Forces. I saw that even when a man and woman has the same rate/rank, occupational specialty and salary, their responsibilities tended to be different. For instance, when loading ordinance onto our ships, the men would be in the hot sun doing the loading, while the women of similar rank/pay/responsibilities would take inventory from the air-conditioned confines of the ship or handle the administrative aspects of the activity. I AM NOT SAYING THIS IS HOW IT NORMALLY IS EVERYWHERE. Just saying that was my observation in many of the tasks in which physical labor was involved.

Physiological differences aside, I have no problems with a woman working/fighting alongside a man so long as she is required to meet the same standards. This also means that the men she is working with must meet those standards as well.
 
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anniebee468 is offline anniebee468 Post #5  May 18,2009, 9:05am
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It takes much more than physical strength. Being in the military was the hardest thing I have ever done. Don't get me wrong, it was a great experience and I made some really great friends, but it is a dog-eat-dog world that discourages individuality and full of people who will step on you to get to the top. If you have a really thick skin than the military is for you. Keep in mind that you may see your family at most once a year, or depending on where you go, you may not. It is a very demanding job and you are told from day one that you are a piece of property and when you mess up they treat you like a piece of property, not a human being. I hope that this enlightens you to what the military is like. I am not trying to deter anyone from entering, however I think everyone should know what they are getting themselves into.
 
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jamesp81 is offline jamesp81 Post #6  May 18,2009, 10:02am
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D_Lion wrote :
In the “reverce racisum” (sic) thread, Jacquesne wrote:

“On one hand women are welcomed in the military. On the other hand they are rarely accepted by their male counterparts especially in combat jobs. One of the reasons for this is that the standards between men and women are different; a perfect score for a man requires more physical strength than for a woman, even on things that honestly should be close to equal like run time. This creates a resentment from the men who have trouble accepting that the woman in their unit is going to be able to keep up and creates a division because of her special treatment.

Now, the closest I’ve come to the military is in a book, so I’m wondering: who agrees that physical strength is really a determining factor in battlefield success, as opposed to intellectual or emotional excellence?

For example, I imagine that a core competency in the current conflict in Iraq and Afghanistan is less the ability to lift a person than it is to talk to a frightened local, about who amongst his neighbors harbors sympathies to extremists?
Physical prowess has always been a core requirement in the military for combat positions and always will be. Even fighter pilots have to constantly workout so that they can withstand the rigors of piloting high performance aircraft.
 
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BlueEyedLizzie is offline BlueEyedLizzie Post #7  May 18,2009, 10:06am
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As a woman I have to say it...must represent my gender, you know...if I want to I should be able to.

Now the disclaimer....

But I should not expect lower standards.
 
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Jacquesne is offline Jacquesne Post #8  May 19,2009, 11:58am
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The thing is it's not just physical strength in the "lifting heavy things" requirement. It's also endurance. The male PFT in the Marine Corps consists of three events, one maximum set of pull-ups, a set of crunches with a 2 minute time limit, and a timed three mile run.

To achieve a perfect score (300, each even being worth a maximum of 100 points) a man must do at least 20 pull-ups (forward hand or reverse grip), 100 crunches in 2 minutes, and run an 18 minute 3-mile run.

The female PFT is the same except instead of pull-ups they must do a "flexed-arm hang" where they bring their chin above the pull-up bar and hold it for time. As long as their arms remain bent (not extended at the bottom) the time continues. A perfect score of 300 for a female is 70 seconds flexed-arm hang, 100 crunches in 2 minutes, and a 21 minute 3-mile run.

For fun I once tried the flexed-arm hang to see how I'd do. I held it for 90 seconds on my first try and I cannot do 20 pull-ups (18 is my max). Why is their requirement for run time less? I know plenty of women who are able to outrun me (mostly soccer players and cross-country runners). This has nothing to do with raw strength as they aren't carrying any weight while running other than themselves.

This situation creates a rift between the men and women in a military unit. The fact simply is that the standards are lower for the women. Physical strength is probably more necessary for infantry than practically ever before. Iraq is not the only war in the world where everyone is driving around in Humvees. Afghanistan is a hiker's nightmare. Likewise infantry carries more equipment and gear than in the history of warfare. We're literally carrying more weight than the knights of old and we don't have horses to carry our heavy butts around.

Knights in full plate armor carried around about 45 to 50 pounds. A modern infantry soldier carries anywhere from 97 to 135 pounds. On an 18-hour patrol you better be in the best shape of your life or you're going to collapse. And if you do it's not just a matter of having someone come over with a bottle of water and take you home. You can die or get other people killed. At the very least you're going to risk a helicopter and your mission for a casevac.

The average male weight in the Marine Corps is around 169 lbs. The average female weight is around 130 lbs. That means the average female would be required to carry around her body weight in gear and the average male is carrying pretty close to it. Modern warfare involves automatic weapons, radios, GPS devices, grenades, rocket launchers, flares, smoke, tear gas, and plenty of other heavy gear. That stuff is not light. Just the Marine Corps uniform alone weighs about 8 pounds and the flack jacket adds another 25.1 pounds. The recommended load for a combat Marine is 50 pounds and you already have 33.1 before you add a weapon, ammunition, radio, kevlar helmet, grenades, food, water, med pack, GPS, batteries, night-vision goggles, and any other equipment the mission requires.

In fact next drill I'm doing a 3-day OP in the mountains here in Reno and I have my gear list right here. Note that this is not including weapons systems. Desert cammies, boots w/ dog tags, kevlar with goggles, eye pro issue, flack jacket, 6 magazines, IFAC (med kit), cami paint, 2 canteens, carabeaner, camel back, assault pack, bivisac (waterproof bag), poncho, poncho liner, 2 pair socks, extra shirt, hygiene gear, foot powder, gloves. And this is actually a very stripped-down version of the gear we normally bring (our ILB main packs) since we don't actually plan on really sleeping other than short breaks (which is what the poncho liners are for). That list doesn't include the food we'll be bringing nor the weapons.

I know I'm sort of repeating myself but I want to emphasize just how important physical fitness really is. The PFT is easy compared to the normal training infantry has to go through. From that mindset seeing a lower standard on something that's already considered a low standard by infantry standards is hard to just accept.

In training, garrison, and in non-combat roles it's not that difficult to adjust for female presence and in fact they become a major asset. In the field, however, where you live and die by your endurance and for simple mechanics reasons it's prohibitively difficult to incorporate women into that environment. You can't exactly just set up another bathroom anywhere you want; that requires time, resources, and logistics. If there are showers they aren't going to have separate stalls let alone separate shower rooms.

This is combined with the comeraderie infantry are required to have; members of the infantry do everything together and women present a possible divisive element. Among other dudes and a "don't ask, don't tell" policy you can grab arse and joke around without the fear that you're likely to get charged with sexual harrassment, sexism, or even racism. Combat is scary. Humor is a powerful defense mechanism and is actively promoted by the military.

Is it politically incorrect that women are difficult to incorporate into this environment? Heck yeah. Theoretically a woman can do everything the guys can and could throw the jokes back as fast as they come. Our culture, however, frowns on this sort of interaction. The military is still an American institution. We have American values and American beliefs. You throw a couple women into what is essentially a guy's locker room and the theory quickly breaks down.

Some of the guys are attracted to the woman. She's attracted to some of the guys. Being in a deadly situation only heightens feelings of attraction and there simply isn't any place for it. The guys get jealous. One of the guys jumps in front a bullet to protect the female. The woman doesn't want to pee in front of the guys and goes off by herself to get captured, raped, and killed.

Theoretically all these problems can be overcome. A woman can work out enough to handle the physical aspects, the guys can be accepting enough to handle her being there as if she's "one of the guys," both she and they can keep personal feelings aside, and the guys can fight off their protective instincts in the interest of professionalism.

The reality is that combat is not theory. Weakness doesn't make your team lose. It doesn't cause a counseling session about "gender sensitivity." It doesn't let you take an extra break because one person is too tired. It is a life-or-death war where not being the best means you're dead.

Personally I wouldn't mind working with women in the military. It would definitely be preferable to working around a bunch of swinging...dudes...all day. I'm also a 25-year-old with a bit of life experience and arguably a bit more professional common sense than most 18-year-old jocks that just graduated high school. Now put those jocks next to some 18-year-old women and expect that to work well.

Again, I hate to say these things because I know people are going to try and prove me wrong. I can see all the arguments; women are tougher than that, people need to get over sexism, equal opportunity, tom-boys, whatever. Look at our society for a second. Do men and women compete equally in sports? Do you have half men and half women on professional soccer teams? What about track; are the men and women competing directly against each other? Football? Basketball? Baseball? Golf? I mean what's keeping women from competing equally with guys playing golf? Tennis?

Now what makes you think that the same society that segregates these things is going to integrate them in the infantry?

Please, let me know if you have a way this could realistically work. Maybe twenty years from now. Maybe.

But I doubt it.

Jacquesne
 
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tbesq is offline tbesq Post #9  May 19,2009, 12:35pm
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All good points, Jacq. I think the real perspective only comes from having the experience. Putting people into positions where they have no choice but to see the disparities. Otherwise, it's all just theoretical bantering.

I make no assumptions about gender differences, I only weigh in based on my own experiences and observations. I play a lot of coed flag football. Usually 4 guys and 4 girls. The rules are different...you have to involve women in 75% of the plays during any offensive series. I think that's a good idea, because men will otherwise be inclined to "freeze" women out from participation. However, there is some rough play even in non-contact flag football, and there is a decided difference in the flagrancy of offenses that are committed by men on women. It is just natural for men to protect women.

"G.I. Jane" was an average Hollywood movie, but I think it presented a great opportunity for debate on gender-related issues in military, especially with regards to the elite SEAL program. But the point-blank truth is that men and women are not held to the same physical standards in the military. Who's fault is that? The Department of Defense? Congress? The women's movement? No definitive answers. But to again address the original thread question, a woman or man is "fit" for military service if they can proficiently perform the physical requirements of the jobs they are getting paid to do.
 
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angelofmerci is offline angelofmerci Post #10  May 19,2009, 3:01pm
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The double standard for a woman's fitness to serve in the military was an idea of the brass in hopes to create the division between male and female members in hopes that the women would either drop out or ask to be released from military duty.

To say a woman can not move a taller and heavier male is pure bunk. If the woman is physically fit she can and mostly will be able to move the male even if it means she has to drag his butt.

Once you are out in the field you better have more than brawn to count on or else you are dead meat. You best have a sharp mind to make fast decisions in a critical situation or else kiss your butt goodbye and those of your unit. In Vietnam we lost too many men to male officers that lacked the gray matter. They had no common sense but they sure could follow orders even if it meant getting a whole platoon wiped out.

Ever seen a woman who is trying to protect her family or home? She will fight like a cornered grizzle taking no prisoners.
 
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