Should every government program be judged by results?


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lizard47 is offline lizard47 Post #31  March 9,2009, 12:59pm
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I find it interesting when people trying to garner support/sympathy for government employees use the term 'public/civil servant' as if they are serving the public any different than someone in the private sector ...


All things being equal, I'd prefer dealing with a private servant than a public servant ... Servant being a codename for employee ... The private servant can get fired for poor performance even if they worked their rears off for 10 years ... A public servant *could* in many cases skip out on actual work after 10 years (key example being the post office).


Rand, there really is a difference. For one thing, public servants know that their work files and emails are almost always subject to FOIA requests. Public servants work in a fishbowl unlike that of any private sector employee.


But, it seems as if you have your mind made up to dislike everything about the public sector so I'll stop trying to offer any different viewpoints.
Yes, you are right their work files are subject to FOIA requests, but in the private work force the files, emails, and really anything the employee does on company time or with company equipment is their property. I do not dislike everything about the public sector, but have grown tired of the "woe is me" attitude when they have better benefits and higher pay then is positions of similiar originals in the private sector.
 
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Rand_011 is offline Rand_011 Post #32  March 9,2009, 1:21pm
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Are you really suggesting that the motivations of someone who works on Wall Street are the same as someone who chooses to work in the public sector?


As one who has been a public servant and who now teaches current/future public servants, I can assure you the motivations are quite different.


I'm well aware this reply leaves much room for snarky comments, and I'll trust to your better nature.
And the flip side response to your first question ... Do you really feel the motivations of someone in the Senate are the same as someone who works for the Red Cross?


If you want to compare the Wall Street multi-millionairres ... It is best to do so with Senators and Congressman ... Some in both categories are very upstanding individuals, and others in both categories are doing it for what they desire most, be it power or money or a combination thereof.


And, as one who as worked as a private servant, and now helps other private servants ... I can assure that our motivations are far more altruistic. (Both directions of that statement are equally empty) (Other than if we don't do best by our clients, we get fired, which forces us to be more helpful and responsive to the clients' needs... The government doesn't have that concern)


Both of us can call ourselves servants and can say that we do what we do for philanthropic reasons, which may very well be the case. But you and I know that such is not the case for all parties in either of the camps or even most of the parties in either of the camps.


Even looking at teachers/professors ... Public sector teachers generally earn more than private sector teachers (that is my understanding from speaking with teachers on both sides of the fence) ... I would admit the teachersas a whole are generally in a job earning less than they could elsewhere ... (I am excluding from my generality those that use teaching as the back-up option)
 
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cameracollector is offline cameracollector Post #33  March 9,2009, 2:30pm
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I find it interesting when people trying to garner support/sympathy for government employees use the term 'public/civil servant' as if they are serving the public any different than someone in the private sector ...


All things being equal, I'd prefer dealing with a private servant than a public servant ... Servant being a codename for employee ... The private servant can get fired for poor performance even if they worked their rears off for 10 years ... A public servant *could* in many cases skip out on actual work after 10 years (key example being the post office).


Rand, there really is a difference. For one thing, public servants know that their work files and emails are almost always subject to FOIA requests. Public servants work in a fishbowl unlike that of any private sector employee.


But, it seems as if you have your mind made up to dislike everything about the public sector so I'll stop trying to offer any different viewpoints.


Yes, you are right their work files are subject to FOIA requests, but in the private work force the files, emails, and really anything the employee does on company time or with company equipment is their property. I do not dislike everything about the public sector, but have grown tired of the "woe is me" attitude when they have better benefits and higher pay then is positions of similiar originals in the private sector.
HR isn't my field of specialization so could you give me some examples of pay and benefit comparisons? My experience was that people left government for higher pay in the private sector - but that was in D.C.
 
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cameracollector is offline cameracollector Post #34  March 9,2009, 2:39pm
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Are you really suggesting that the motivations of someone who works on Wall Street are the same as someone who chooses to work in the public sector?


As one who has been a public servant and who now teaches current/future public servants, I can assure you the motivations are quite different.


I'm well aware this reply leaves much room for snarky comments, and I'll trust to your better nature.


And the flip side response to your first question ... Do you really feel the motivations of someone in the Senate are the same as someone who works for the Red Cross?


If you want to compare the Wall Street multi-millionairres ... It is best to do so with Senators and Congressman ... Some in both categories are very upstanding individuals, and others in both categories are doing it for what they desire most, be it power or money or a combination thereof.


And, as one who as worked as a private servant, and now helps other private servants ... I can assure that our motivations are far more altruistic. (Both directions of that statement are equally empty) (Other than if we don't do best by our clients, we get fired, which forces us to be more helpful and responsive to the clients' needs... The government doesn't have that concern)


Both of us can call ourselves servants and can say that we do what we do for philanthropic reasons, which may very well be the case. But you and I know that such is not the case for all parties in either of the camps or even most of the parties in either of the camps.


Even looking at teachers/professors ... Public sector teachers generally earn more than private sector teachers (that is my understanding from speaking with teachers on both sides of the fence) ... I would admit the teachersas a whole are generally in a job earning less than they could elsewhere ... (I am excluding from my generality those that use teaching as the back-up option)
Rand, I've said that I make a distinction between career public servants and elected officials. I would agree that elected officials can be a different animal.


But I think our difference comes down to an essential disagreement about what constitutes the "public interest" (or even whether such a concept exists at all). Most people I know who have chosen to work in the public sector do so because they wish to make a difference (in a positive way).


As I said before, I think it's a cheap shot to take broad swipes at public employees because there really are a lot of good, solid, hardworking people out there trying toserve the nation's (or the state's or the county's or the city's) interests.
 
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Rand_011 is offline Rand_011 Post #35  March 9,2009, 3:23pm
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But your argument in favor of the public sector is the same as the private sector ... I can't think of anyone I know in the private sector who desires to make no difference or desires to make a difference in a negative way ... Let alone anyone who tries to cheat other individuals.


And the flip side is ... It is a cheap shot to take broad swipes at the private sector because of Enron and AIG ... There are a lot of businesses out there that pride themselves on customer service and actually doing right by their clients.


So my argument remains the same ... If one area is to be deemed a servant, both are deserving of the titleand the association that goes with it. Neither of which I deem deserve it. Only fields I can think of that I would feel could be called servants would be army (with possibly the police/fire dept) and the various charitable organizations.
 
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