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Rand_011 Rand_011 is offline
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passerine wrote :
1) I assume by carrot you mean subsidies? But where will you get the funding for the subsidies? Or for the regulation measures? The other issue is that subsidies are often for using the "best technology available" and don't encourage research and development.
2) A tax isn't a punishment it's an incentive, if the business lowers it's carbon output it recieves a smaller or no tax. This increases the demand for more effieicent/cleaner/cheaper technology which leads to better tecnology being available. Subsidizing puts the cost on the victims (public) of the externalities (pollution) of industry. Taxes place the burden on those who are causing the problem, you internalize the costs of pollution. Furthermore, a tax creates revenue that can be put towards regulating the tax.
1) By carrot I do not mean subsidies ... Just for simplicity sake ... Let us assume there are no special taxes on businesses due to the nature of their business ... Ok ... Now we want to put a carrot out for the manufacturers ... So we give them a 1% (simplicity sake again) decrease in corp taxes for reaching a certain level ... And have further carrots the more they decrease emissions.

2) A tax isn't a punishment, it's an incentive?!?! Well, in one sense, 'if you don't do this we knock you over the head with a baseball bat, so you best change your ways or we come a knockin' ... But that theory really looks similar to a punishment rather than the carrot routine ...
Taxes are in the punishment category (I can't think off-hand of a scenario in which they could ever be in the carrot box).
- July 22nd, 2009, 10:53 am
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meri75 meri75 is online now
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dwreese182 wrote :
It wasn't what you said but how you said it. Perception is 99 percent of the game in political debates, and most everything else in life. Perhaps I perceived your comments the wrong way.
Either way, it seems like most everyone I talk to seems to believe we have some impact on global warming. It only seems to be the special interest groups that are pushing the self destruction thing.
For sure perception is a very real thing. A good thing too, I think, I mean I'd rather have it than not!

But I'm interested: do you class global warming as political? Would we be more successful if 'being green' weren't portrayed as a political choice? I don't consider myself 'green' in thought or act.

I think we (humans) are contributing to global warming, in many little ways. There are so many little things contradicting the 'yes, we care' statement. When I say 'little stuff', samples:
~ not using the litter/trash/waste bin
~ not using tank/rain water
~ washing oily, soapy substances down the sink or street drains
~ non-edible items being packaged in both cardboard and cellophane
~ waste and/or irresponsible disposing thereof
~ not opting for solar/wind powered heat/power alternatives

I see most of this stuff (and more) daily. At home. At work. At the supermarket. At the park. At the beach. On the roadside. Everywhere.

If we aren't prepared to make changes on the little stuff, why do we expect to make changes on the big items ... or expect our business/industry leaders to implement changes we can't or won't make ourselves privately? Why is being green offered as an alternative and not as a way of life? Because people are comfortable with our lives today? Because we don't understand the problem? Because it won't affect those of us (probably) in our current lifetime? Because we aren't interested?
- July 23rd, 2009, 02:39 am
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passerine passerine is offline
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Rand_011 wrote :
1) By carrot I do not mean subsidies ... Just for simplicity sake ... Let us assume there are no special taxes on businesses due to the nature of their business ... Ok ... Now we want to put a carrot out for the manufacturers ... So we give them a 1% (simplicity sake again) decrease in corp taxes for reaching a certain level ... And have further carrots the more they decrease emissions.

2) A tax isn't a punishment, it's an incentive?!?! Well, in one sense, 'if you don't do this we knock you over the head with a baseball bat, so you best change your ways or we come a knockin' ... But that theory really looks similar to a punishment rather than the carrot routine ...
Taxes are in the punishment category (I can't think off-hand of a scenario in which they could ever be in the carrot box).

I don't think either of us is going to convince the other . My issue with simply reducing their corp tax is that it still externalises the costs. I think we can agree that pollution from a factory is detrimental to the public. So why should the public shoulder the burden of the externality? By lowering the tax you remove revenue from the public coffers. If a tax was placed on the factory than the cost would be placed on the manufactuers and those that use the product. O.K. a tax is a carrot...but it's still an incentive. Anything that will convince you to do or not do something is an incentive. Creating a carbon tax but offering reductions for those who lower emissions is an incentive that internalizes the costs of the externality.

Meri75:

I think one of the reasons "going green" is percieved as polltical is becasue it's often potrayed in a environment vs economy light. Some people see environmental policies as a threat to their way of life, that they will lose their jobs and their homes. I think it goes without saying that the economy relies on the environment, so in a long term view "going green" is the best way to assure we have the raw materials we depend on....but businesses (except some that use wood) don't think in hundred, 2 hundred year business cycles. Waiting for people or industry to act by themselves will take a while...I think game theory explains why.
- July 23rd, 2009, 09:38 am
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meri75 meri75 is online now
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passerine wrote :
Meri75:

I think one of the reasons "going green" is percieved as polltical is becasue it's often potrayed in a environment vs economy light. Some people see environmental policies as a threat to their way of life, that they will lose their jobs and their homes. I think it goes without saying that the economy relies on the environment, so in a long term view "going green" is the best way to assure we have the raw materials we depend on....but businesses (except some that use wood) don't think in hundred, 2 hundred year business cycles. Waiting for people or industry to act by themselves will take a while...I think game theory explains why.
Sure - I understand your viewpoint. But I feel that too much focus is being made on big industry and not enough on the individual. For example, our Government is trying to encourage people to install solar hot water heating systems. By offering a partial rebate. However, if you decide to build and install solar hot water from the get-go, you're on your own! If you do switch and your combined income is $100K or higher, then the rebate becomes means tested. The same applies if you have the walls and ceiling of your building insulated. There is no push whatsoever to utilise Solar/Wind Power as an electricity alternative. Nor to install water tanks in every home, although I live in the second driest State. I've lived here since Nov 03, we've had water restrictions the entire time.

The approach isn't consistent ... which adds to the confusion I feel over the government's true stance when it comes to green alternatives.

I think I feel that the reason the focus should be on the individual to care to change is because our industries are made up of individuals.

Sorry to rave on so, this topic really interests me!
- July 25th, 2009, 04:21 am
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dito wrote :
What's your take on it?
Well ... supposedly with the "global warming" effect, the climate here in the Northwest was to be similar to Northern Europe, in that the region would experience cooling. And, the past few summers have lended plausibility to this theory. I remember summers past when we would have days into the nineties. However, for the past few summers, we only had a couple of days that topped out at around 86 degrees fahrenheit. So ... I started considering this theory.

However ... we are now currently experiencing a stretch of weather with highs into the nineties. Well ... so much for the theorizing of how "global warming" will affect this region. It has all been shot to hell now!

But I do believe, that since the Industrial Revolution began around 250 years ago, we as humans do leave a greater impact on the environment and this planet. And I find it ironic that Conservative Christians are usually the ones who deny this observation, especially since the book of Genesis issues a mandate to be good stewards of the created order. And therefore, stewardship implies that we do have a discernable impact, for good or ill.
- July 27th, 2009, 03:44 am
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i dont clame to be an exspert on this,about 25 years ago i had a good freind i used to hike the high sierras with, he was doing studys on dna and such, didnt realy fully understand it all but i was vary good at building things, he needed special machines to do his work, so i built them for him, he was vary into the enviromentbut knew all about global warming, now this was 25 years ago and he knew it was a problem we are going to have to deal with,,in short this is what will happen, about every 10,000 years the planit goes into an ice age, we are at about the end of that time line, there is a current in the atlantic ocean that keeps us from freezing, first the planit will warm up a little , then the ice caps will start to melt, this will in turn interfer with the currents in the ocean, then we go into an ice age, this all happens in a short period of time, wheather or not this is going to happen isnt a question , its when, and can we do anything about it, ive lost tuch with my freind but i believe he is in montana, would be interesting to talk again about this, he may be one of the smartest scientist of our time but he could talk to me on a one to one basis, he may be able to fix the world but he cant fix his car, that why there are people like me
- August 7th, 2009, 10:09 pm
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bigfincat bigfincat is offline
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meri75 wrote :
Sure - I understand your viewpoint. But I feel that too much focus is being made on big industry and not enough on the individual. For example, our Government is trying to encourage people to install solar hot water heating systems. By offering a partial rebate. However, if you decide to build and install solar hot water from the get-go, you're on your own! If you do switch and your combined income is $100K or higher, then the rebate becomes means tested. The same applies if you have the walls and ceiling of your building insulated. There is no push whatsoever to utilise Solar/Wind Power as an electricity alternative. Nor to install water tanks in every home, although I live in the second driest State. I've lived here since Nov 03, we've had water restrictions the entire time.

The approach isn't consistent ... which adds to the confusion I feel over the government's true stance when it comes to green alternatives.

I think I feel that the reason the focus should be on the individual to care to change is because our industries are made up of individuals.

Sorry to rave on so, this topic really interests me!
If there is a water shortage issue in any area then I think that area should absolutely use all available technology to solve that problem at the group level. That is just common sense.

I don't have such a problem in my area & likely will never have it. I appreciate that very much & do not take it for granted.

I know how that can negatively effect quality of life. Water at your fingertips makes life easier & there is no doubt about that.

I have a feeling that this last sentence will be the one focused on most UNFORTUNATELY because the above is the point. On a side note, I do believe that President Obama brings a common sense approach to problem solving that has not been seen in my lifetime.
- August 8th, 2009, 01:45 pm
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meri75 meri75 is online now
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bigfincat wrote :
If there is a water shortage issue in any area then I think that area should absolutely use all available technology to solve that problem at the group level. That is just common sense.

I don't have such a problem in my area & likely will never have it. I appreciate that very much & do not take it for granted.

I know how that can negatively effect quality of life. Water at your fingertips makes life easier & there is no doubt about that.

I have a feeling that this last sentence will be the one focused on most UNFORTUNATELY because the above is the point. On a side note, I do believe that President Obama brings a common sense approach to problem solving that has not been seen in my lifetime.
Yep, I agree. The ideas being tossed around re water preservation are:
~ make all new buildings install water tanks (happening in some States now)
~ recycling water for general use, including for human consumption
~ installing water meters

Strangely, since my last post it has poured with rain every day. I am now sporting an impromptu moat!
- August 14th, 2009, 07:33 am
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I agree with Cyclist-Steve on the arrogant comment...

Did anyone see the story in National Geographic about the changes in the Sahara desert? Very interesting in that it is changing for the better...

Climate change or just the natural order of the Earth? I vote just the natural order of the Earth.

Sahara Desert Greening Due to Climate Change?
- August 14th, 2009, 01:53 pm
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