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ThePriestess ThePriestess is offline
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deegoesgreen wrote :

I appreciate not knowing all the facts bothers people, and that citing National Security as the reason to not divulge everything comes across as flimsy. That's where we're supposed to stand on faith that our leaders know what they're doing. *rolls eyes*


IMO, we are incarcerating allegedly enemy combatants on the justification of where they were apprehended, what they were doing, and other evidence we don't know about. Some might believe we throw out a fishing net and kept the tin cans and tires along with the Deadliest Catch. One of the first applications of due process is probable cause. This permits search and seizure. So I must have faith that probable cause led to apprehension of these individuals and "got them off the streets" if you will. Again, I cannot agree the detainees fall under the protections of either the Constitution or the Geneva Convention.
I don't understand ... you roll your eyes at the notion of having faith in leaders without question ... but then say you have faith in them? This appears ambiguous in nature to me.
- February 16th, 2009, 11:47 am
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deegoesgreen deegoesgreen is offline
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cameracollector wrote :

deegoesgreen wrote :


cameracollector wrote :


The "greatest good for the greatest number" argument almost always sounds attractive until you're the one being thrown over the castle walls as the sacrifice for everyone else....


Ah, well, there have been many, many brave men and women through our 200+ year historywho voluntarily went over that castle wall and made the ultimate sacrafice for our freedom. Perhaps my being raised in a military family and being around it my whole life, I can comprehend the greater good in a way civies can't.


All the best.


I'm a military kid, too, and I've been a public servant all my life.


I get it.


There's a huge difference, though, between those who volunteer and those who are involuntarily apprehended under a suspension of habeus corpus.
Are you speaking of our volunteer servicemembers versus the enemy combatants? How do we know that habeus corpus was suspended? Because they've been detained for years and years? I think on that last count I would agree. We haven't acted with due diligence in getting the Gitmo guys sorted out. It was a simmering pot on the back burner while the top lawyers argued over how to untangle the huge ball of yarn while the politicans played politics on other fronts.
- February 16th, 2009, 12:42 pm
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deegoesgreen deegoesgreen is offline
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ThePriestess wrote :

deegoesgreen wrote :


I appreciate not knowing all the facts bothers people, and that citing National Security as the reason to not divulge everything comes across as flimsy. That's where we're supposed to stand on faith that our leaders know what they're doing. *rolls eyes*


IMO, we are incarcerating allegedly enemy combatants on the justification of where they were apprehended, what they were doing, and other evidence we don't know about. Some might believe we throw out a fishing net and kept the tin cans and tires along with the Deadliest Catch. One of the first applications of due process is probable cause. This permits search and seizure. So I must have faith that probable cause led to apprehension of these individuals and "got them off the streets" if you will. Again, I cannot agree the detainees fall under the protections of either the Constitution or the Geneva Convention.


I don't understand ... you roll your eyes at the notion of having faith in leaders without question ... but then say you have faith in them? This appears ambiguous in nature to me.
You're right, I was ambiguous. I'm trying to have faith that our top law enforcement officials are acting within the scope of sound judgment and adherence to the law. My rolling eyes are from that part of me that knows folks in powerful positions all too often act in their best interests. For example, I've read a bit about former prosecutors who resigned under questionable circumstances. Link: http://militarytimes.com/forum/showthread.php?p=137626


This creates doubts in my mind, but knowing certain people involved in the process and knowing them to be honorable, I'm conflicted.





- February 16th, 2009, 12:53 pm
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Derulux Derulux is offline
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zal wrote :
Derulux, thanks for clarifying.

Now let's look at the reverse. "Is it okay if other countries send militants here". .... Treaties and international laws require the British to work through the US government, which in turn is obligated to capture the perpetrators. Depending on specifics, the US either extradites or tries the perpetrators.

Apologies for that long winded response. Essentially, my point is that the difference lies with diplomacy.

Another way of examining your question. If Bin Laden had been operating out of Pakistan. invasion would have been unjustified, because the Pakistanis would have been obligated to capture him or permit us to capture him.

Interested to hear your thoughts.
Hey zal! Sorry I haven't replied.. all year.. I've been "out of the area". But I am back now. I zeroed in on the area of this discussion I would like to address, because I agree with a lot of what you said. I simply wanted to point out a devil's advocate and get your view..

The U.S. is bound by treaty to discuss the matter with foreign nations. However, if the foreign nation believes a U.S. citizen committed an act of terrorism/war against their country, and the U.S. does not believe this is the case, the U.S. will protect that citizen from extradition. Now, in the event that the U.S. will not turn over its citizen to a foreign nation, would that nation be correct in engaging in military action against us to forcefully remove that person from our country? (Basically, I am putting us in Afghanistan's shoes, and Afghanistan in our shoes.)

Oh, and if you want to know.. regarding the Taliban: The U.S. was actually the primary nation that aided the regime in defeating the Russians during the Cold War. We were among the first to recognize them as a soverign entity. I believe we later rescinded, but I am not sure how close it was on the timeline to 9/11...
- October 14th, 2009, 08:50 pm
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