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GiS, please; I don't think Lizzie has "people" here, in that sense. You seem to believe that there's a group here that is out to silence people: if there is, I have no evidence of it, and I certainly have never seen any reason to believe that this is Lizzie's agenda.


And you very well might be right.


But I am still not about to stop stating what is widely agreed around the world and that is that we illegally invaded a sovereign country and are directly responsible for the deaths of many innocent lives.


We all need to wake up and realize that what we did in Iraq was not only illegal it was immoral and unethical.
So who is it that's determined that the Iraq war is illegal and who is the criminal?
- November 22nd, 2008, 06:02 pm
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I am afraid simply not likeing a government or leader of a sovereign nation is not a legal excuse to invade them and to kill their leaders. ...
Ummm, Godless -how do you explain the Korean War? America attacked Korea for the sole purpose of not letting a communist regime take over Korea. Korea did not attack us.
- November 23rd, 2008, 12:35 am
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My, it certainly is convenient to 'forget' thatsome good things have come out of this war: Saddam Husseinis now gone due to our efforts, and we haven't been attacked by terrorists since 9/11.


I'd say those are some prettynoteworthy accomplishments, not to mention the good that has been done in Iraq in bringing a semblance of democracy to them.
- November 23rd, 2008, 01:40 am
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GiS, please; I don't think Lizzie has "people" here, in that sense. You seem to believe that there's a group here that is out to silence people: if there is, I have no evidence of it, and I certainly have never seen any reason to believe that this is Lizzie's agenda.


And you very well might be right.


But I am still not about to stop stating what is widely agreed around the world and that is that we illegally invaded a sovereign country and are directly responsible for the deaths of many innocent lives.


We all need to wake up and realize that what we did in Iraq was not only illegal it was immoral and unethical.
So are you saying that going into Bosnia was immoral and unethical?


Do I want our soldiers dying and being injured? NO Do I understand that sometimes this has to happen? Yes Did I want to lose friends to this war on terror? NO But did I also want to lose a friend on 9/11 and watch her mother slowly go insane while her father watched helplessly? NO


But based on the intelligence at hand and the fact that Hussein was not abiding by the treaty enough was enough.


Did I want my dear friend to not be able to see his baby daughter with his own eyes and have to wait months to be able to hold her when he was back because of his injuries? NO, but what is amazing is that he said he would not have changed going over there because the people he met were grateful for helping end the tierny and fear that they lived under.


I also know people that are from the area of the world and while they do not like having others in their country, they also realize the need for it at this time.


You brought up Hitler, some of the things that Hussein was doing were very similiar to Hitler.


Yes, I am passionate when it comes to this topic because I have friends that were lost and friends that gave up time with their wife and watching their children to serve and I do not take it well when someone disrespects their sacrifice.
- November 23rd, 2008, 02:27 am
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I do not disagree that there are some positive things coming out of us being in Iraq or that Suddam was and evil man. We can’t go back in time and stop the war from happening nor do I think we should. However the ends don't justify the means. Every piece of evidence the Bush administration brought forth as to why we should go to war in Iraq was fabricated out of thin air and yet we bought it all hook line and sinker.


There never was a government funded link between Al Quida nor a major al Quida presence in Iraq until we invaded the country. The claims that Saddam was attempting to obtain nuclear weapons material completely false as well. So to say that we went in to that country to fight Al Quida and help make America safer is just flat out wrong. The claim that Iraq had WMD’s again flat out wrong with no real evidence to back that claim up. Now we’re not talking about the Bush administration simply dropping the ball and not vetting out the evidence properly. Where talking about them actively pursuing ways and means to fabricate believable evidence that would allow them to go to war with Iraq.


Not for one second do I doubt the honor, courage and self sacrifice that our American soldiers have and continue to have for my own freedom in America and that they do it with great pride and willingness. But those soldiers should never have been put in a situation where they had to display those qualities time and time again willingly or not. To fight and die for the freedoms of another is one of the noblest acts one can ever perform. But when the war you are fighting in has a main cause that has been fabricated out of thin air by a power hungry self serving dictator then something has gone wrong. I will support our troops 100% ever time they do their duty and follow the orders of their commander in chief. But supporting them 100% does not mean that I have to give a blanket acceptance of the orders that they have been given and the reasons behind those orders.


Right now in the White House Bush is crafting blanket pardons for all the people complicit in fabricating the evidence of the war as well as those that violated the Geneva conventions rules of torture while stationed down at Guantanamo Bay as well as those that gave those orders. Look at the case of the German man whose two biggest crimes against humanity where that he was not American and he chose to show in interest for the belief system of the Muslim culture instead of Christianity. He chose not to be Christian and so they arrested him as a terror suspect and carted him off to Guantanamo Bay and held him there for years not days or weeks but years without any contact with his mother or legal representative. Not only that they tortured him in unimaginable ways and this was even after they discovered the overwhelming evidence vindicating this young man as not being a terrorist. Time and time again even while knowing he was not guilty they tried to coerce him in to signing a statement of his guilt and even attempted to get him to sign said statement on the plane flight back to German to set him free and let him go. And anyone who tries to argue that Bush had no knowledge of the many incidences mirroring this one or that he did not authorize or foster this type of culture in the military and amongst his advisors and staff is very naïve at best.


So I have all the respect in the world for the sacrifice that our American troops have made for my freedoms but somewhere along the lines we crossed the line and went very wrong and the people that lost their moral compass somewhere in life and orchestrated our crossing of the line need to be held accountable for their actions. Some people have argued that we should simply move on and focus all our energies on the healing of the nation. Yet what if we had never held the Nuremburg trials and held the Nazi’s responsible for the genocide of the Jewish people accountable for their actions where would we be today. Bush and his administration committed many terrible crimes against the American people and the peoples of the world and he should be held accountable for his actions but he won’t even receive a slap on the wrist. Yet Bill Clinton decides to get a little busy in the Oval office with a young willing intern and we vilify him as a demon for his actions.

- November 23rd, 2008, 10:25 am
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godlessinseattle Dare To Question All Received Truths

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Look up some of the findings from the Nuremburg trials and the precedents set there for what constitutes a justifiable reasong to wage war on a sovereign nation. The USA in accordance with virtually every tenet of international law (laws which we have signed on to) is guilty of crimes against humanity: deliberately starting a war of aggression against another sovereign nation.


As I said above, we will not like weaker countries be forced to pay for our crimes against humanity. We are still too powerful so we get to flaunt international laws.


We need to stop thinking we can unilaterally re arrange the world to suit our purposes. Until we learn this lesson there is no reason to be surprised that so much of the world views not with respect but fear. Our foreign policies are very subjective and prone to adventurism.
- November 23rd, 2008, 04:08 pm
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Look up some of the findings from the Nuremburg trials and the precedents set there for what constitutes a justifiable reasong to wage war on a sovereign nation. The USA in accordance with virtually every tenet of international law (laws which we have signed on to) is guilty of crimes against humanity: deliberately starting a war of aggression against another sovereign nation.


As I said above, we will not like weaker countries be forced to pay for our crimes against humanity. We are still too powerful so we get to flaunt international laws.


We need to stop thinking we can unilaterally re arrange the world to suit our purposes. Until we learn this lesson there is no reason to be surprised that so much of the world views not with respect but fear. Our foreign policies are very subjective and prone to adventurism.
GIS,


You don't seem to want to accept the facts that Saddam Hussein was in violation of the terms of the 1991 cease fire agreement and in violation of UN resolutions regarding weapons programs. Those reasons alone were enough to resume military action.


Don't take this as my support for US action in Iraq. It should have been a UN issue but the UN has no spine. Hussein had to go but the US was the only country with the testicular fortitude to see it happen. (Oh, I forgot about Poland.)
- November 24th, 2008, 06:14 am
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godlessinseattle Dare To Question All Received Truths

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tweet37 wrote :



Look up some of the findings from the Nuremburg trials and the precedents set there for what constitutes a justifiable reasong to wage war on a sovereign nation. The USA in accordance with virtually every tenet of international law (laws which we have signed on to) is guilty of crimes against humanity: deliberately starting a war of aggression against another sovereign nation.


As I said above, we will not like weaker countries be forced to pay for our crimes against humanity. We are still too powerful so we get to flaunt international laws.


We need to stop thinking we can unilaterally re arrange the world to suit our purposes. Until we learn this lesson there is no reason to be surprised that so much of the world views not with respect but fear. Our foreign policies are very subjective and prone to adventurism.


GIS,


You don't seem to want to accept the facts that Saddam Hussein was in violation of the terms of the 1991 cease fire agreement and in violation of UN resolutions regarding weapons programs. Those reasons alone were enough to resume military action.


Don't take this as my support for US action in Iraq. It should have been a UN issue but the UN has no spine. Hussein had to go but the US was the only country with the testicular fortitude to see it happen. (Oh, I forgot about Poland.)
No one appointed us as world cops. There were many UN teams sent in and in spite of what you may believe no good reason was found by any of them for war to be waged on a country that would inevitably lead to thousands of innocent civilians being maimed or killed. There was much room for talking and negotiating and using various trade sanctions.


Bottom line we waged a war of aggression on a sovereign nation on trumped up charges that would not hold up in any international court. We had no legal right at all to do what we did in Iraq. If we were a less powerful nation we would be punished or at least the war leaders would be punished.


It really doesn't matter whether you support Bush or not, or whether you are for shocking and awe-ing Iraq (euphimism for maiming and killing thousands) the world has been moving towards establishing rules about waging war one of mankind's most destructive behaviors. We have often been in the forefront of this international movement to end wars of aggression. We were in clear violation of these laws.


The UN is not in the business of rubber stamping every war we decide we want to fight.


Fortunately, as our country is slowly sinking into economic decay we will be less likely to wage useless, unwinnable wars like the one against Iraq. We will come to realize that the world is big and we do not have the wherewithal to make it conform to our interests and our interests alone.


We are very good as a nation at starting wars. We suck at finishing them. We break things and then get bored and tired of losing a lot of lives in places that really rightfully mean nothing to us and then we find an excuse to exit long, long before anything has been resolved. I really do hope we learn how to avoid stupid useless killing fields in the future.
- November 24th, 2008, 08:19 am
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*sigh*
- November 24th, 2008, 09:07 am
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tweet37 wrote :

But it was the world vs Iraq and it was virtually unanimousthat it wasjustified.

It was Salem, Massachusetts vs the women accused of wltchcraft and it was virtually unanimous.


Was it justified?


- November 24th, 2008, 09:08 am
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