Auto industry bailout: yes or no?


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godlessinseattle is offline godlessinseattle Post #21  November 19,2008, 8:36pm
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m8se69,351269 wrote :

My grandfather was one of the founding fathers of the United Mine Workers. He went to work in a mine @ the age of 9. This is when they simply sent them in with a hat a pick and a flashlight. Back then, regulations were needed.
How long ago did nine year olds work in this country, especially in such a dangerous job. I thought you would have to go back to at least the mid parts of the 19th century to see 9 years old being forced to work.


This too shall pass. There was once good reason for unions. Not anymore.


BTW it is too late to save expensive American jobs. The consumer has long since voted with his pocket book for cheaper goods, If we want to compete with the world it won't be in factory jobs.
 
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godlessinseattle is offline godlessinseattle Post #22  November 19,2008, 8:38pm
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ThePriestess,351207 wrote :

godlessinseattle,351176 wrote :


ThePriestess,350848 wrote :


I drive a Nissan.


Me too! Best car I have ever driven and when I need servicing it is always done quickly, relatively cheaply and always politely.


I wonder why they are beatting the pants off the competition.


Not.


Good gas mileage too.


I want to date a girl with one of those new VW Bugs ... they're quite stylish.
Love the gas mileage, the low maintenance fee and just how sexy my car looks.
 
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m8se69 is offline m8se69 Post #23  November 19,2008, 8:56pm
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godlessinseattle,351325 wrote :

m8se69,351269 wrote :


My grandfather was one of the founding fathers of the United Mine Workers. He went to work in a mine @ the age of 9. This is when they simply sent them in with a hat a pick and a flashlight. Back then, regulations were needed.


How long ago did nine year olds work in this country, especially in such a dangerous job. I thought you would have to go back to at least the mid parts of the 19th century to see 9 years old being forced to work.


This too shall pass. There was once good reason for unions. Not anymore.


BTW it is too late to save expensive American jobs. The consumer has long since voted with his pocket book for cheaper goods, If we want to compete with the world it won't be in factory jobs.
I guess it was around 1915 that he started working in a coal mine. It was definately a long time ago, no doubt.He went to work with his dad. That's just how they did it then. I guess some things have definitely changed for the better!


And it is definitely out of the question for competing for factory jobs. Especially when the machinery that is used in countries such as Chinaare the same machines that we sold them; because they were unfit for the environment to be used in America. Kinda ironic, isn't it!?
 
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Glider_Pilot is offline Glider_Pilot Post #24  November 19,2008, 9:00pm
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godlessinseattle,351325 wrote :

... BTW it is too late to save expensive American jobs. The consumer has long since voted with his pocket book for cheaper goods, If we want to compete with the world it won't be in factory jobs...
Well, I guess we're both in agreeable moods tonight. -laughs, and looks around for signs of impending apocalypse-


> ...BTW it is too late to save expensive American jobs. The consumer has long since voted with his pocket book for cheaper goods...


I agree. This country's economyis going to undergo a major realignment with that of the rest of the world in the coming years and decades. We simply can't afford to continue the lifestyles to which we've become accustomed. Until our wage/cost ratios (if not absolute values) come around to those of other countries, there will be very large incentives for companies to 'offshore' their work to the maximum practical extent. Trying to thwart that politically is just plain dumb.
 
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godlessinseattle is offline godlessinseattle Post #25  November 19,2008, 9:11pm
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m8se69,351389 wrote :

godlessinseattle,351325 wrote :


m8se69,351269 wrote :


My grandfather was one of the founding fathers of the United Mine Workers. He went to work in a mine @ the age of 9. This is when they simply sent them in with a hat a pick and a flashlight. Back then, regulations were needed.


How long ago did nine year olds work in this country, especially in such a dangerous job. I thought you would have to go back to at least the mid parts of the 19th century to see 9 years old being forced to work.


This too shall pass. There was once good reason for unions. Not anymore.


BTW it is too late to save expensive American jobs. The consumer has long since voted with his pocket book for cheaper goods, If we want to compete with the world it won't be in factory jobs.


I guess it was around 1915 that he started working in a coal mine. It was definately a long time ago, no doubt.He went to work with his dad. That's just how they did it then. I guess some things have definitely changed for the better!


And it is definitely out of the question for competing for factory jobs. Especially when the machinery that is used in countries such as Chinaare the same machines that we sold them; because they were unfit for the environment to be used in America. Kinda ironic, isn't it!?
YEs, a long time ago. But still to think that in the 20th century American boys were working underground, mining is really mind blowing. It seems the kind of thing I remember reading about in Victoria Era England. I sort of put that down in my mind to "them" and not "us".
 
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Fide_Et_Marte is offline Fide_Et_Marte Post #26  November 19,2008, 10:45pm
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eHA_Boards_Admin, wrote :

The automotive industry is asking for a $25billion taxpayer funded bailout.


Should we or shouldn't we?
I'll answer with a story.
THE THREE BAKERS


Imagine, if you will, simpler times, not too long ago.


Imagine a moderately-sized town, nestled in a great valley in the mountains. The land in the valley is fertile and rich. There’s a vast lake, and two rivers. There are fields and woods and orchards. All manner of businesses thrive in the town; there are farmers and blacksmiths and fishermen and cobblers and coopers and ranchers and midwives and schoolteachers, just to name a few. In the summer, the children swim in the lake and in the streams; in the winter, they pelt each other with snowballs.


In this town, there are maybe a dozen or so bakers. Three of those bakers—who have lived in the town for a long time—have spent the last decade or so getting really good at baking fattening (not to mention expensive) cakes and pies.


However, tastes have changed over the past few years. The townspeople’s appetites for fattening cakes and pies have diminished. The three old bakers are still in business, but times are tough for them.


Meanwhile, the other bakers have worked very hard at anticipating the changing tastes of the townspeople, and are baking whole wheat bread and muffins—items that the townspeople do want to buy.


One particularly hot and dry summer night, disaster strikes: a horse, startled by the scent of a wolf, rears up and kicks over a lantern. The barn the horse is in catches fire. The fire is initially contained, but glowing embers of hay are borne high up into the air, and rain down all over the town. Dozens of fires spring up.


The townspeople spend all night heroically fighting the fires, and manage to put them all out; the town is saved. But in the harsh morning light, the townspeople—singed and covered with soot—see that a full 10% of their town has burned. Some people are homeless; other people’s savings have been wiped out. The economy of the town dives into a recession; much rebuilding lies ahead.


The three inept bakers, while merely struggling when times were good, are now in serious danger of failing. They raise a great hue and cry. The mayor calls a town meeting.


The three bakers stand and address the crowd. “We know times are tough,” they say, “but look at all of the people we employ. If we shutter our doors, what will happen to them? What will happen to the millers whose flour we buy? What will happen to the farmers, whose wheat the millers buy? We are an indispensable part of the economy. You cannot let us fail.”


But then a wise old man in the crowd comes forward to speak. His name is Ludwig von Mises.


“It is true that if you were to fail, many people would be affected,” von Mises says. “Millers will face tough times. Wheat farmers will feel the pain as well. In truth, everyone listening hear tonight will probably be affected in some way, and our town is already facing hard times.”


“But this pain will be short-lived. Who is to say that the miller whose business fails because you can no longer buy his flour must become a beggar in the street? Who is to say that the farmer whose wheat the miller no longer buys must suffer the same fate? The farmer can plant other crops. The miller can pick up the carpenter’s hammer, or the butcher’s knife, or the fisherman’s tackle, or even the accountant’s pen—professions to which he can transfer the skills he learned as a miller far more effectively than he himself might realize.”


“Furthermore,” he continues, “your existence does not necessarily make us richer. The farmer grows the wheat; the miller grinds the wheat into flour; you bake the flour into cakes. But when you throw the cakes into the trash for want of buyers, you have squandered all the toil and effort of not just yourself, but the miller and the farmer as well.”


“In truth, then, by wasting resources producing products that no one wants to buy, you are making us all poorer . We would be richer if you were to fail, because the farmer and the miller would redirect their efforts to enterprises that would actually be of benefit and thus profitable.”


“Finally,” von Mises says, “what message would we be sending to the other bakers? They worked hard to understand the changing tastes of their customers. They have not foolishly wasted time and effort baking items that our townspeople don’t want to buy. I can think of no greater sin than to punish them for their wisdom and prudence by rewarding their competitors for their incompetence.”


“I’ve lived in this town all of my life. I can remember when the three of you were young and strong. But we cannot jeopardize the future of this town for memories of past glory. The true test of a business is not whether it can survive in good times, but whether it can survive in bad times. If you cannot change and adapt, then for the sake of our town, you must stand aside, so that healthy businesses can take your place.”


With that, Ludwig von Mises sits down.


The three bakers look out into the crowd. In the faces of the townspeople, they see some degree of sympathy—but they also see their answer writ there as well. Shamefaced, they sit back down. The mayor calls the town meeting to a close, and the three bakers return home.


The three bakers’ names? Ford, Chrysler, and General Motors.


In this story, the three bakers are not villains. The townspeople feel both nostalgia and sympathy for them. And I daresay that many people also feel at least a little nostalgia and sympathy for Ford, Chrysler, and GM.


But it is also clear that Ludwig von Mises is correct; a business that is squandering resources making products that people don’t want to buy is a drain on the economy, not a benefit to the economy—no matter how many people that business employs. Bailing out a failing business is precisely the wrong thing to do, especially in tough economic times. This is one of the tenets of Austrian economics.


(To learn more about Austrian economics, just Google “Ludwig von Mises” and click the first link; it will be the home page of the Ludwig von Mises Institute.)
 
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mdover is offline mdover Post #27  November 20,2008, 8:14am

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My response to the OPs question is, "No".


I am opposed to any form of bailout for any industry. All it does is prop up inefficient businesses. The big three may become the big two or big one or may even wind up being eaten by one of their more successful competitors.


I can well imagine that sometime back in 1901 or 02 the buggy makers coming to Washington looking for handouts to help them weather the economic crisis being caused by those upstart horseless carriage makers. It didn't though and no doubt those who once made a good living making buggies and horse carts suffered, some of them even permanently. But most probably moved into the growing car industry and never looked back.


We should not be in the business of backing yesterday's winners and today's losers. Let the market work it out. The best the government might do is to to work with those displaced workers and communities to help them re tool ineffect for a new way of making a living.
 
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LizziePooh is offline LizziePooh Post #28  November 20,2008, 10:00am

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m8se69,351269 wrote :

There are enough government regulations on hiring and workforce guidelines to substantiate re-negotiating or simplyending a lot of union organizations.
Hi m8se69,


That is pretty neat about your grandfather. He must have been a very courageous man. And I agree with you. Unions served a purpose to protect workers' rights but that day has come and gone. With all the employer regulations out there, the need for unions no longer exists. Ahhh, but once you have power, how do you give it up? And once you are that powerful, how can someone make you give it up? So bankruptcy seems to be the best course in order for the three to restructure and try to get back into the game of making a product that can compete in today's market.


I do not think the government should do it. One reason is I really do not like government getting involved in setting earnings for private companies and the government should not be making a practice out of bailing out failing companies. And the second reason is the unions are too powerful politically that the government would not be able to accomplish any sort of useful conditions on the loans.
 
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notamaninpower is offline notamaninpower Post #29  November 20,2008, 3:15pm
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Sorry folks, but I don't want to be forced to buy a foreign nameplated car (ifI wanted a new car at all) such as all of the rest of you have NO problem driving (and supporting their economies, regardless of where it's actually screwed together.)


I, like dnnmllr, have ONLY purchased new domestic nameplated and manufactured vehicles, and have NO plans to change that practice, and am also proud to say such. I also have had VERY good (even excellent) experiences with my domestics (reliability, mileage, longevity, etc.), unlike it seems, the rest of this country who feel that is their justification for supporting our competitors. Funny how everyone on the right (or otherwise) is soooo nationalistic on EVERY other issue involving this country, but when it comes to supporting our own home industries it's "free-market this, and consumerism that". Also funny how NO ONE complained when the 'free trade' playing field was 90 degrees uphill for our manufacturers, but 45 degrees downhill for theirs.


Hey, I've got an idea, since we are so desperate for foreign things, why don't we not just have the Japanese, Koreans, etc. send us over CEOs/execs to run our companies (since according to the populace, American citizens cannot), but turn the WHOLE country (lock, stock, government, and barrel) over to them?? Sound like a plan?


All of you DO realize that, for the sake of a principle, you are inviting (maybe guaranteeing?)a depression that will make the early 1930sseem like an AIG exec's luxury outing, right? And yes, this even includes the 'Chapter 11 reorganizing' everyone on the right is ranting about
 
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Lovinlife405 is offline Lovinlife405 Post #30  November 20,2008, 8:10pm
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Absolutely not! Unless they plan on bailing me and every small business owner as well. We are just as vital to the economy of the country as they are.
However I've already cut my expenses. When they big execs are ready to sell their private jets and fly commercial, then let's talk reorganization. I drive a 2001 Honda, 155,000 miles and it has NEVER been in the shop because something has broken. There's a message there.

 
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