How can we improve communication between the genders here?


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eHA_Admin_Lori is offline eHA_Admin_Lori — Advice Official Moderator Post #1  May 17,2009, 10:09am
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Aside from the obvious avoidance of making sweeping generalizations about the genders in conversation here -what else can we do to move away from being seemingly enemies, when all we're trying to do is figure out how to better LOVE the opposite gender?

We welcome all ideas and I want to really stress that this thread MUST remain civil if it's to be productive -- so please consider your posts carefully before posting.

Thanks in advance!
 
 
littlebluemonkeymind is offline littlebluemonkeymind Post #2  May 17,2009, 11:02am
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Well, one question I would have is: is making a sweeping generalization any worse than making a statement from personal preference or experience that could be considered offensive? Are we really so thin-skinned that we can't ignore the occasional generalization or respond to it with common sense?

I've not been around much lately, but the times I have popped in, I've seen a lot more of people calling others on generalizations and doing so with what borders on personal attacks.

If you can't respond with logic and a bit of emotional distance, I say walk away. Policing the way people express themselves (beyond the reasonably enforceable) seems futile.

These days there's a quote hanging on my bathroom mirror that I look at every morning. It reminds me that my perceptions are not universally shared or necessarily objective. It reads: Are you sure? It keeps me quiet a whole lot more but I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing. I'm sure there are others here who would agree ;^)
 
 
HarryG is offline HarryG Post #3  May 17,2009, 11:52am
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littlebluemonkeymind wrote :
Well, one question I would have is: is making a sweeping generalization any worse than making a statement from personal preference or experience that could be considered offensive? Are we really so thin-skinned that we can't ignore the occasional generalization or respond to it with common sense?

I've not been around much lately, but the times I have popped in, I've seen a lot more of people calling others on generalizations and doing so with what borders on personal attacks.

If you can't respond with logic and a bit of emotional distance, I say walk away. Policing the way people express themselves (beyond the reasonably enforceable) seems futile.

These days there's a quote hanging on my bathroom mirror that I look at every morning. It reminds me that my perceptions are not universally shared or necessarily objective. It reads: Are you sure? It keeps me quiet a whole lot more but I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing. I'm sure there are others here who would agree ;^)
Thought provoking, V.

I think that keeping emotional distance in discussions of any sort-but especially in discussions that deal with deep-rooted beliefs or opinions (such as gender issues, love, etc.) is often impossible. The high road is the best road-but that road is not always easily accessed.

When someone makes a statement that is a generalization or a statement formed from personal experience, they are expressing what they believe to be "truth". Even if by expressing their "truth" causes a tidal wave of opposite reactions, it is still believed by the person stating their original opinion. Belief-even if grossly inaccurate-is strong and tough to change. Try telling a little one that Santa is a myth. No matter what factual evidence you may be able to produce, that little one KNOWS in his/her heart that Santa will be delivering gifts come Christmas Eve. Belief is often unimpeachable-even if it *is* incorrect factually. To abandon or even to modify a long-held belief is to question your own foundation...even your own existence.

That is scary.

Many times the lack of communication between people on this board (in this case between opposing genders) stems from two people who are too afraid to confront themselves. The bitterness comes from fear-not so much from any great antipathy towards a gender. True, there are misogynists on this board and there are men-haters as well. IMO, those two groups are in the minority. Most folks here get along and only stumble when a held opinion or belief goes sideways.

To get back on-topic: I think that the easiest way to ease tensions in terms of gender communication on the board is to remember that stating an opinion-even if stated as fact- is NOT a personal attack. I do not have to agree with what someone says, nor do I have to remain mute when someone says something that is patently offensive or mistaken. However, when someone does the same to me, its MY job to remind myself that they are merely disagreeing with my view of the world-NOT that they are attacking me, nor find me to be offensive as a human being (at least I hope that is the case).

I have been the recipient (I choose to NOT employ the word "victim"-because that is over-dramatizing a situation, IMO) of misjudgment by several people who post on eHA. Some, have allowed themselves to open up and listen to me. Those people tend to become friends. Others have refused to even give me an opportunity to explain my viewpoint. Those people are content to brand and categorize me...sometimes by gender, sometimes by race, sometimes by politics. Their choice.

We as individuals are complex and unique. as such we cannot be classified that easily. For those who wish to throw generalizations around rather than open dialogue, this little statement is unnerving. If we remember that each one of us CANNOT be categorized, that may open the lines of communication.
 
 
tbesq is offline tbesq Post #4  May 17,2009, 12:09pm
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I have no problems with generalizations and vents, so long as both men and women can equally make them freely. That has not been the case in general. Men are getting attacked for their opinions about women when their opinions are unpopular, even when those generalizations are made based on their experiences. Additionally, there seem to be more community standards violations reports and locked threads geared towards men's comments than the other way around. There are several female posters who routinely post negative stereotypes and other inappropriate remarks about men without any reprocussions. As female posters outnumber male posters as it is, there needs to be more fairness for stated opinions from both the board members and the moderators alike. If that can start happening, no one will hear anything further from me.
Last edited by tbesq; May 17,2009 at 12:17pm.
 
 
bravethestorm is offline bravethestorm Post #5  May 17,2009, 1:47pm
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I think there is a difference in a sweeping generalization statement and a outright bitter or angry post. Personally I try to look over a sentence here and there as no matter how many times you read your words...someone else may interpret more in them than you intend. However, if the whole post is focussed on putting someone or a gender down that is going too far.

I also believe in the "walk away" or only reply once if possible. When it becomes a back and forth arguement or someone always having to have the last word...that is a matter of giving up personal control. Those types of situations where one or both won't quit picking at the other need intervention.

People simply need to be able to disagree with grace or when upsetting someone let it go. Why would you want to keep stepping on someone's feelings intentionally to prove your point?

When I'm reading a post...my priority is to the original poster and then the replies. I feel whoever asks the question or for feedback is the one that needs help the most. While agreeing or disagreeing with another poster happens, I think it is doing a diservice to take such an arguement and hijack the thread. Replies should be for the benefit of those asking...not a personal battle.
 
 
noseyparker is offline noseyparker Post #6  May 17,2009, 2:15pm
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I am glad that you mentioned these two points. outlaw1 posed two interesting questions in the past 24 hours, which I'd like to paraphrase here:
1. Are men, in their desire to criticize women being insensitive to the physical challenges which we go through as we age? And I will add the same for women understanding men's issues. Would we be just as exacting in our requirements? Personally I have asked my trusted male friends to help me understand some of the things that men of my age go through. True, at 98 most are dead, but a few still flirt with me from time to time.

2. "How would women feel more supported and/or validated on eha?" I'm not suggesting that we encourage them in acts of folly, just to seem nice, and positive, for some behaviors clearly lead to destruction. For example, I will never encourage a woman who does not meet a man's stated preference to write to him in the hope that he did not mean what he wrote. He either meant it or is a poor communicator. I stand firmly by that position.

If people are online trying to meet someone, it does perpetuate the negative stereotypes about men's shallowness and women's gold digger tendencies when we read negative views about women's size, looks, men's income etc. being mentioned. These are areas in which people are exceedingly vulnerable. Makes me personally wonder if this is how my own matches think. I can't speak for other women, but I respond more positively to an expression of vulnerability, than to criticism.




eH_Advice_Admin_Lori wrote :
1) when posting, remember that perpetuating negative stereotypes and generalization just makes problems with interpersonal communcation between the genders WORSE, not better

2) when reading, remember that many of the people who come to post here do so because they are in pain and need to vent, and consequently may unwittingly generalize negatively about the opposite gender. Try not to take things personally.
Last edited by noseyparker; May 17,2009 at 2:38pm.
 
 
neardc is offline neardc Post #7  May 17,2009, 2:46pm
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bravethestorm wrote :
I think there is a difference in a sweeping generalization statement and a outright bitter or angry post. Personally I try to look over a sentence here and there as no matter how many times you read your words...someone else may interpret more in them than you intend. However, if the whole post is focussed on putting someone or a gender down that is going too far.
noseyparker wrote :
If people are online trying to meet someone, it does perpetuate the negative stereotypes about men's shallowness and women's gold digger tendencies when we read negative views about women's size, looks, men's income etc. being mentioned. These are areas in which people are exceedingly vulnerable. Makes me personally wonder if this is how my own matches think. I can't speak for other women, but I respond more positively to an expression of vulnerability, than to criticism.

I agree. "Any" (or every) generalization about men or women isn't a problem, but some generalizations aren't just inaccurate, they are harmful. By that I mean generalizations like "women are obsessed with height and won't date shorter men" and "men are only interested in thin women" or "women only want men who have an expensive car and make a lot of money" where, despite how people may fill out their Match profiles with those preferences, or who state them on these boards, reality is that men and women of all shapes and sizes and means find love and happiness with partners who adore them. If you were only going to go by what is expressed in many of the threads on these boards, you would certainly assume that isn't the case. In fact, we've seen people leave the boards because they have heard those negative messages so many times that they have come to take them personally. They are harmful.
 
 
simplemind is offline simplemind Post #8  May 17,2009, 9:45pm
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In group dynamics, the "culture" of the group can change from day to day or week to week. Things that foster more positive interactions (constructive feedback, working toward a common goal) tend to require most/all group members agreeing to the goals first.

While creativity and freedom of input is desired, if the group meanders too far from the stated goal, things can unravel. It's best if there is an agreed-upon mediator, whose image is not parental if possible, who can periodically turn the tide back to the task (in our case, helping each other through the shoals of online dating and sharing online companionship). Group members who have been there longer tend to be viewed as role models by newbies, and may serve well as temporary mediators--I saw this done well several times in my first few nights here.

It only takes one or two polarizing parties; and then transferences, projections, displacements, and all sorts of Freudian goodies emerge. The group can splinter or polarize rapidly in this setting.

So, how to encourage improved communication between the sexes? I wish I knew everything--am working on it but it's not likely to happen before I die--but perhaps a few offerings from a newbie?

--it may be helpful to have a male and a female admin to monitor the boards (Lori, you have done an admirable job, but there are things men experience that you and I could never know in the way a man can; much as we might try to understand.). This may serve to help identify when an issue truly has the subtleties of man-bashing, among other things. The accusation of "you don't see it because you're female" at times has its merits, but at other times is just a perception. Keeping you on board will be important, to ensure that the reverse perspective is maintained for the female participants. In any event, if an individual or individuals show that they are frequent offenders, they may need to be counseled privately by admin. Maybe that's happening already?

--It may be up to the group itself. This is asking a lot from a huge and diverse population. I had the impression that the community volunteers might assist in this, but am not sure what the delineation of their roles is. Neardc did a nice job of shutting down one thread that had spun out of control, but there are too many other places where I see things that make me distressed--and I'm not sure that "running to the school monitors" is going to help people monitor themselves.

--So the next step is to do as you have: to ask the community members to review their own behaviors. But then you have to reinforce the behavioral goal by challenging polarizing posts as soon as you see them occur--from either sex.

--I agree with the author above that the titles of some threads just incite this sort of behavior right off the bat. Sensationalism always attracts viewers, and some folk like to go to hockey games just to see the fights. Might be hard to know right away which threads are problematic, but on the other hand doesn't hurt to sit in on those a little more closely than, for instance, threads addressing how many dates you should have before you let someone know where you live.

--it all starts with a willingness. A willingness to believe, as you've each said in several ways, that on the other side of these electrons sits a living breathing human being, who needs to be given the benefit of the doubt before being judged. Where willingness ends, detachment and devaluing find fertile ground.

It would be good, then, to reinforce it when you see someone post a note anywhere else that is neutral, or speaks to the issue in a non-generalizing way. This not only fosters good communication skills for those who may have some limitations in this respect, but reinforces/models more "helpful" behaviors for those who are new.

Sorry if I sound too lofty, but it's late and I just hope this made sense. Have to admit, have been avoiding quite a few threads in recent weeks for this very reason. Felt like a good give and take for awhile, but not lately. Mebbe it's why the game threads seem to be getting a lot of action lately? ;-)

Thanks for the request for input. Good luck to us all, and good night.
Last edited by simplemind; May 17,2009 at 10:02pm. Reason: this thing is far too long!
 
 
littlebluemonkeymind is offline littlebluemonkeymind Post #9  May 18,2009, 7:04am
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I do agree that a male moderator presence on the boards (I know Jack is out there somewhere but I've never seen him post) along with a female mod would go a long way toward helping diffuse the "this place is full of women and men can't say anything" complaint. Not that you aren't always fair, Lori. I think you do an admirable job. But I do think have a male mod presence might help validate one way or another whether men are being treated unfairly here, as tbesq contends.

And I completely agree that thread titles are key in some of the more loaded exchanges. I've sometimes wondered whether controversial titles are left up because they get hits...if so, it's a dangerous trade-off.

It is hard, sometimes, to maintain some emotional distance when responding to someone who appears to be mean-spirited and I'm not advocating allowing someone else to get away wtih bad behavior. I do think, though, that some acknowledgment on all our parts that our perceptions and opinions are just that and nothing more (and so are others') could go a long way toward a little less shrillness and a bit more silence where we might actually hear the other person's humanity. There are exceptions, of course. The bitter, the disenfranchised, the people whose pain is so great that they must hurt others...those cases should not be left to the general population to deal with.
 
 
tbesq is offline tbesq Post #10  May 18,2009, 7:21am
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Yes, LBMM, agree. Whether or not we agree with someone's opinion, they deserve to be heard. While one person's experiences may not be someone else's experience, that doesn't mean that those experiences did not occur. What often happens is that people try to discredit one person's experiences by stating that they themselves haven't had that experience. Often this occurs because posters assume that a person's opinion from their experiences has been projected to apply to all members of that gender.

Some posters state, either in their thread title or in the body of their OP, that the post is meant as a rant/vent, and shouldn't be taken personally. I think that is a great idea. As Lori has stated, people come to these boards and relay their experiences because they are in pain or frustrated.

Lastly, referencing one or two convenient "studies" to validate one's generalization on a gender bring nothing to a discussion. There are no such "official" studies. For every study that states one position from a limited control group, there are other studies that either refute or slight deviate from it.

Just a few more observations I have made that tend to send threads into a tailspin.
 
 
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