WeDesignOurLives is offline WeDesignOurLives Post #1  September 26,2009, 6:13pm
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Is it possible that what people call god is actually luck?

Every event has a chance or occurring or not. Can't really say if there's any cause one way or the other. Isn't that luck?...isn't luck just really the unpredictable nature of nature?

Just a thought. Not terribly attached to it. Maybe someone can support or challenge.
 
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meri75 is offline meri75 Post #2  September 28,2009, 12:13am
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If I wear my seat-belt, I will have some protection should I crash. If I don't, I will likely exit my car via the windscreen. Neither of these occur due to God or to luck: good or bad. They occurred due to my choices.

Luck is usually defined (online dictionary) as circumstances or events shaping outcomes. Sometimes it is an object, such as a four leaf clover or rabbit's paw.

Lots of time I hear people attributing good luck to God and bad luck to evil or Satan. I think it is our choices; but people (I know I do!) often forget the choices made have the potential to affect the lives of others, including complete strangers. Getting behind the wheel drunk isn't an act of God, or of bad luck, it is of reprehensible choice. Does this make sense?
Last edited by meri75; September 28,2009 at 1:19pm. Reason: fixed typo
 
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Valtyr is offline Valtyr Post #3  September 28,2009, 3:00am
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WeDesignOurLives wrote :
Is it possible that what people call god is actually luck?

Every event has a chance or occurring or not. Can't really say if there's any cause one way or the other. Isn't that luck?...isn't luck just really the unpredictable nature of nature?

Just a thought. Not terribly attached to it. Maybe someone can support or challenge.

My, my this has the potential to be a rather sensitive subject. Is there a possibility that the god people refer to is actually luck? That would be an interesting change of state to the universe. If god were luck, luck being defined in this case as chance. Nature would most assuredly operate differently or not at all. Chance implies randomness or unpredictability. Randomness does not exist in nature everything is connected. Luck is just something that helps us cope with the vast interactions of everything. Nature operates on very specific laws, if you expose six containers of bacteria to something and all the conditions are the same. Then every bacterium will adapt in the same way. Life always takes the most efficient course of action. If randomness existed, all six bacterium would have a different outcome and more then likely die because they might or might not be following self-preservation. If randomness exists, it would be in everything, life would live by a random set of rules. Gravity could exist and then not, a sun could be dead and then not, we could breath something other then oxygen and maybe not. Nature likes patterns if there were no pattern nature would not exist because it would not be able to adapt. The growth of life depends on constants. Therefore, I must say that what people call god is not luck.

Not my best formed argument ever but I am rolling with it for now.

by the way, I’m not sure how your title correlates with your opening post…
 
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kevin76 is offline kevin76 Post #4  September 28,2009, 7:50am
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I agree with Valtyr - every event has a cause. "Luck" is just a way of saying we don't know the cause. Even the rolling of dice and the shuffling of cards is determined by physics - just because we don't know enough to predict the outcome doesn't mean it was random.

If you don't know the cause of some particular event, you may attribute it to God or you may attribute it to unknown natural events.

I have to disagree with you on one point - not every event has a chance of occurring. What are the chances that I will spontaneously transform into a fire-breathing dragon? Zero. (That would be pretty cool, and I'd like to believe it could happen, but what I would like to believe and what is actually possible are not always the same.) The only events that have a 'chance' of occurring are those that fall within the framework of natural laws.
I've talked to a lot of people who have experienced things they believe could not possibly have happened naturally, and for that reason they attribute those events to God. It's possible that there really is some natural explanation, and we simply don't have all the data. It's also possible that it was an act of God. The point is, there's really not any way for us to know without a doubt. We can only use our best judgment in each case, and make the best choices we can based on the information we do have.
 
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WeDesignOurLives is offline WeDesignOurLives Post #5  September 28,2009, 8:10pm
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"I agree with Valtyr - every event has a cause. "Luck" is just a way of saying we don't know the cause. "

And I agree with you too.

"If you don't know the cause of some particular event, you may attribute it to God"

Right... so practically speaking is it unfair to say god is actually luck? (happenstance...statistical nature of reality).

"I have to disagree with you on one point - not every event has a chance of occurring."

Technically, I mean strongly technically, every event has a chance of occurring else it can't be called an event. Fantasies are speculative events.

"What are the chances that I will spontaneously transform into a fire-breathing dragon?"

There may be a statistical chance for that just as there is for throwing a baseball through a lead wall. (Quantum mechanically speaking there is a chance for that...it might be one over a trillion to the power of a trillion but that's statistics for ya.

"The only events that have a 'chance' of occurring are those that fall within the framework of natural laws."

Ok, well you have a great deal of DNA and apparently only a little is used so I don't really know.

"I've talked to a lot of people who have experienced things they believe could not possibly have happened naturally, and for that reason they attribute those events to God."

"It's possible that there really is some natural explanation, and we simply don't have all the data."

Isn't it fair to say there must be a natural explanation for everything that occurs? (even if you say it's god because isn't god part of nature?)

"The point is, there's really not any way for us to know without a doubt."

Right! So it we can't know can't we say with certainty that it's just luck? (luck either being what we call god or god causing what we call luck)

Fun fun fun!
 
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WeDesignOurLives is offline WeDesignOurLives Post #6  September 28,2009, 8:19pm
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meri75 wrote :
If I wear my seat-belt, I will have some protection should I crash. If I don't, I will likely exit my car via the windscreen. Neither of these occur due to God or to luck: good or bad. They occurred due to my choices.
if you will LIKELY exit your car via the windshield then you're saying there's a chance you won't and that is a matter of luck. You can say it's not luck because you chose to be there but you also can't say it's choice because you sitting one quarter inch to the right or left might determine your life....or the other person going 60 or 60.15. The things we choose are all macro (should go to the store or not) but the galaxy of specific events we put into play that we can't control (leaving one half second later) can also play a major role (is this called 'synchronicity'? yep... seems so... Synchronicity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

Synchronicity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

HA! and how about this! Never saw this before!

"Littlewood's Law states that individuals can expect a "miracle" to happen to them at the rate of about one per month."

Littlewood's law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"He assumes that during the hours in which a human is awake and alert, a human will experience one event per second, which may either be exceptional or unexceptional (for instance, seeing the computer screen, the keyboard, the mouse, the article, etc.). Additionally, Littlewood supposes that a human is alert for about eight hours per day. As a result, a human will, in 35 days, have experienced, under these suppositions, 1,008,000 events. Accepting this definition of a miracle, one can be expected to observe one miraculous occurrence within the passing of every 35 consecutive days – and therefore, according to this reasoning, seemingly miraculous events are actually commonplace."

(HA! I've actually thought this thought too but never knew someone laid claim to it.)
 
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Valtyr is offline Valtyr Post #7  September 29,2009, 3:53am
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"I agree with Valtyr - every event has a cause. "Luck" is just a way of saying we don't know the cause. "

"And I agree with you too."

 I don’t recall ever saying anything about cause and effect. I suppose I can see how it could be read that way.

 I was going to throw some comments out on your point-by-point WeDesignOurLives but, I am tired so you lucked out (slaps knee).

Though I will recommend you try something fun. Go through your day without saying any words relating to time or possibility. The English language is heavily reliant on these.

If you can, I will be impressed. (Contains 2 words referring to possibility, and 2 time reference.)

You can have a gold star with a smily face.
 
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Dim is offline Dim Post #8  September 29,2009, 6:17am
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God is love, not just '' same as love''.
 
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zazoo61 is offline zazoo61 Post #9  September 29,2009, 9:12am
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istm, neither faith in God nor luck can be declared with certainty as the cause of an event. And 'tis too true that we may simply not know the "logical" cause of an event and thus attribute it to God or luck. However, we can also make educated guesses as to cause. Some events have so much evidence pointing in a direction, that to deny that causal factor would appear as foolishness. To take the flip side of your suggestion, perhaps we attribute to luck things that ought rightly be attributed to God, or rather to God's involvement if not orchestration?

Too, for myself, there have been times that things have happened that are inexplicable by natural forces, iow God is the only "rational" explanation - Occam's razor would suggest acceptance of that fact over "fate" or "luck" or "randomness." But that's an individual thing; not all are granted such evidence I imagine.

I sit here watching leaves being shaken from the trees and have faith in wind being the cause because I can feel it's presence around me and logically deduce its power to bend the trees and remove the autumn foliage. Same sort of thing, no?
 
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kevin76 is offline kevin76 Post #10  September 29,2009, 11:50am
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WeDesignOurLives wrote :
...

"Right... so practically speaking is it unfair to say god is actually luck? (happenstance...statistical nature of reality)."

That makes as much sense as saying "it might have been caused by an elephant therefore an elephant is actually luck."
You can only claim that A is B if A and B are the same in every aspect. Your assertion would only be true for someone who personifies "Luck" and worships it as their god. There probably are some people like that, but I am not one of them, so I would in no way say that "god is luck" or that "luck is god."

"Technically, I mean strongly technically, every event has a chance of occurring else it can't be called an event. Fantasies are speculative events.....
There may be a statistical chance for that just as there is for throwing a baseball through a lead wall. (Quantum mechanically speaking there is a chance for that...it might be one over a trillion to the power of a trillion but that's statistics for ya."

I disagree with you. I can imagine all kinds of things that have no chance of ever actually occurring. Of course you can claim that any of those things could possibly occur, and I can't prove you wrong scientifically, because science does not have the ability to prove that a particular thing is impossible. That's a limit of science, not a limit on what is possible/impossible. Just because I can't prove it doesn't mean it's not true.
If you really want to go there, you will be entering the realm of foolish and pointless speculation where anything is possible, and therefore all assertions are meaningless (because nothing is concrete.) But it's not possible (!) to have any kind of meaningful conversation about such foolishness.

"Ok, well you have a great deal of DNA and apparently only a little is used so I don't really know."

We only know the exact purpose of a small percentage of DNA, but we know the major function of DNA, and I think it's safe to assert that DNA doesn't allow for spontaneous transformations from one kind of body into something totally different. But then all you have to do is say "I don't know, therefore it's possible" and go back into the realm of fantasy and everything said becomes meaningless again...
"Isn't it fair to say there must be a natural explanation for everything that occurs? (even if you say it's god because isn't god part of nature?)... So it we can't know can't we say with certainty that it's just luck? (luck either being what we call god or god causing what we call luck)"

It's only fair to say 'there must be a natural explanation for everything that occurs' if you assume that nature is a closed system. But I think that assumption is neither fair nor reasonable, considering the evidence.

Really, it all depends on your definitions of 'nature' and 'god' and 'luck.' By my definitions of those words I would answer your question with 'no' and say many of your assertions are nonsense. But perhaps you have a different definition for your words that I don't know about.
So before we can really come to any understanding, maybe you should define all your terms.
 
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