rocchio is offline rocchio Post #1  May 11,2010, 8:25am
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So what if people want to believe in silly things like Astrology, Faith Healing, Magic Cystals, Healing Power of Rocks (No, I did not make that up!), and any other assorted unscientific beliefs requiring articles of faith? What's the harm? Why does it matter?

Simply put, ideas are important. Without ideas, man (pardon the sexist usage, but it just has a much more poetic ring to it) is nothing; he’s nothing more than a slightly evolved cousin of the chimpanzee. Since science depends on the essential correctness of abstract ideas—concepts that can be quantified--when we stray, when we reject science for mysticism, be it of the religious variety or New Age quackery-- we open ourselves up to a world of the arbitrary—a place in which any and all ideas are equivalent, equally valid. Why, for example, is the reading of sheep entrails (a common pratice in antiquity) and less or more credible than astrological readings? If I accept the unprovable, what keeps me from accepting nearly anything as factual and relevant?


I would like to open a dialogue and hear other examples of the rejection of very probable truth or the embrace of concepts and ideas that offer no contributing objective evidence and the potential for harm that seemingly innocuous and simply flighty ideas can have.
Last edited by rocchio; May 12,2010 at 7:12am. Reason: Edited for greater clarity.
 
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WeDesignOurLives is offline WeDesignOurLives Post #2  May 11,2010, 6:41pm
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Ok, are you saying it's harmful or not?

On the one hand, if it makes you happy then the world's a better place. On the other if feel you'll only find a job when you believe enough in crystals and that causes my taxes to increase because you're on unemployment more than you actually need to, then it's socially harmful.
 
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j0hn8andy is offline j0hn8andy Post #3  May 11,2010, 7:23pm
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Well, now Rocchio.....I do like to post threads that Friends start.....but I'm with WDOL in this.....I don't know what you said in your OP.

WeDesignOurLives wrote :
On the one hand, if it makes you happy then the world's a better place. On the other if feel you'll only find a job when you believe enough in crystals and that causes my taxes to increase because you're on unemployment more than you actually need to, then it's socially harmful.
Now this I can understand.

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Spider is offline Spider Post #4  May 12,2010, 3:00am
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Just on the general topic, 'cause I'm trying to get ready for work and still not caffeinated:

People are attracted to "woo" (for lack of a better term) because it's comforting in some way. Some are scared at the prospect of an indifferent universe, which they perceive as threatening (since there is no benign force looking out for them personally). They feel that there must be some underlying personal significance or purpose to their existence - to them, to think otherwise would negate any feeling of individual importance. It's especially comforting, when bad things happen, to be able to place responsibility for those Bad Things on either (a) an evil entity/plot/consciousness, (b) a good entity whose purposes are mysterious and beyond our ken, or (c) some misreading of the True Meaning of Life, the Universe, and Everything (have you cast your runes today?).

People want to be reassured that everything is purposeful, and the idea that you can lead an exemplary life and still get flattened by a falling rock makes them uncomfortable. It's also scary to contemplate the end of your own existence, hence all the interest in spiritualism, the psychic hot lines, and speakers for the dead.

Once a particular bit of woo gets going, there's also that wonderful feeling that one is "in on the secret" - there's a big attraction to feeling wiser and more elevated in your sensibilities than the unwashed, ignorant crowds.

All in all, I think it's a need, for some people, to feel that they can either understand or control the universe, mostly out of fear. Reassurance.
 
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rocchio is offline rocchio Post #5  May 12,2010, 6:34am
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j0hn8andy wrote :
Well, now Rocchio.....I do like to post threads that Friends start.....but I'm with WDOL in this.....I don't know what you said in your OP.



Now this I can understand.

j8a
I'm sorry for being unclear. I am suggesting that mysticism, and the rejection of probable evidence or the acceptance of unprovable concepts, are not benign, if we look at them from a more general perspective.

The child who dies because his parents rely on prayer and faith instead of medical treatment, or the religious fanatic that keeps a child from a transfusion are far more obvious examples of what I'm suggesting. Another example is the man who forgoes western medicine to be treated with crackpot new age ritual to cure his cancer.

In short, I'm soliciting other examples of the harm that results when people reject rational thought and examination, be they mystical ideas or political and pseudo-scientific ideas that rely on specious evidence.

I hope this helps.
Last edited by rocchio; May 12,2010 at 7:14am.
 
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j0hn8andy is offline j0hn8andy Post #6  May 12,2010, 6:30pm
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rocchio wrote :
The child who dies because his parents rely on prayer and faith instead of medical treatment, or the religious fanatic that keeps a child from a transfusion are far more obvious examples of what I'm suggesting. Another example is the man who forgoes western medicine to be treated with crackpot new age ritual to cure his cancer.

In short, I'm soliciting other examples of the harm that results when people reject rational thought and examination, be they mystical ideas or political and pseudo-scientific ideas that rely on specious evidence.
I thought about this all day, wondering whether to post or not. I know your're "soliciting" the "harm that results"...

My husband died of cancer. We had two weeks from the time we learned he was ill.....until he died. He went with "western medicine".....to no avail, obviously. It was just caught too late.

During the two weeks, a friend told me of her brother. He had cancer (a different form).....and he and his wife went with the "crackpot new age ritual".....successfully, as it turned out.

Since then, I know of at least one other.....

There are things we don't know that I'm not willing to reject out of hand....."specious evidence" or not.

As for the "harm".....it did hurt, when my friend told me about her brother.....and my husband died. She didn't mean it that way, would not have wanted to hurt me.....and in fact, she prayed for us both.

I am still thankful her brother lived.

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WeDesignOurLives is offline WeDesignOurLives Post #7  May 13,2010, 10:34am
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rocchio wrote :
I'm soliciting other examples of the harm that results when people reject rational thought and examination, be they mystical ideas or political and pseudo-scientific ideas that rely on specious evidence.
Ok... well isn't the Left full of that and it's not mystical? People are willing to abandon rational thought regardless of what religion or social climate exists.

The examples that come from religion I think are actually quite small compared to social ones. Climate change is a large scale present example.

here's one... a school super dashed the dreams of a girls hoops team because she decided for them that the trip to play in State finals "would not be aligned with our beliefs and values,"

Is that not totalitarianism? the team can't play basketball because the head of the school is fighting some nonsensical position about equality? Comical.

It's so unreal to me how the Left seeks to control everyone's life and call it 'equality'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totalitarianism


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rocchio is offline rocchio Post #8  May 13,2010, 4:27pm
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j0hn8andy wrote :
I thought about this all day, wondering whether to post or not. I know your're "soliciting" the "harm that results"...

My husband died of cancer. We had two weeks from the time we learned he was ill.....until he died. He went with "western medicine".....to no avail, obviously. It was just caught too late.

During the two weeks, a friend told me of her brother. He had cancer (a different form).....and he and his wife went with the "crackpot new age ritual".....successfully, as it turned out.

Since then, I know of at least one other.....

There are things we don't know that I'm not willing to reject out of hand....."specious evidence" or not.

As for the "harm".....it did hurt, when my friend told me about her brother.....and my husband died. She didn't mean it that way, would not have wanted to hurt me.....and in fact, she prayed for us both.

I am still thankful her brother lived.

j8a
J8A, Firstly, I'm sorry for your loss; I'm sure that was a difficult time for you.

Western medicine, regarding treatment for cancer, such as chemo-therapy and radiation treatment has a quantitative and measurable advantage over all other forms of "cures" for cancer. Is western medicine 100% effective? No, it is not. The survival rate, however, for those with cancer has risen almost exponentially over the last 5 decades, due to advances in treatments based on western medicine. Conversely, people have been using magic (new age) and prayer (appeal to a supposed unknowable power) for millenia with dismal results.
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j0hn8andy is offline j0hn8andy Post #9  May 13,2010, 6:47pm
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rocchio wrote :
Western medicine, regarding treatment for cancer, such chemo-therapy and radiation treatment has a quantitative and measurable advantage over all other forms of "cures" for cancer. Is western medicine 100% effective? No, it is not. The survival rate, however, for those with cancer has risen almost exponentially over the last 5 decades, due to advances in treatments based on western medicine. Conversely, people have been using magic (new age) and prayer (appeal to a supposed unknowable power) for millenia with dismal results.
I do agree with you about the benefits of "science" (let's say) vs. "magic". I certainly agree about the "quantitative and measurable advantages".

Still, I would not dismiss, out of hand, magic and prayer.

I submit there was a time, not so long ago, when doctors were arguing the "benefits" of washing their hands.....when traveling from one patient to another.....

.....and now that is no longer "magic".....but "science".

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WeDesignOurLives is offline WeDesignOurLives Post #10  May 13,2010, 6:51pm
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"Conversely, people have been using magic (new age) and prayer (appeal to a supposed unknowable power) for millenia with dismal results."

Ok, fine, but what about the results when external truths aren't involved? Do you disagree that people who think they are lucky do indeed get better results?

How about placebos?

People who think god is on their side certainly (on average) are happier. You're concerned about truth... fine... for macro issues... but for personal issues I want empowerment and faith wins over truth every time. Here's just one example.


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