chawks64 is offline chawks64 Post #31  October 27,2009, 4:07pm
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DennisWisconsin wrote :
You are really mixed up on your history... they used observation and mathematics that were repeatable... You are making the wrong comparison...

Your beliefs are like the raving lunatics (Christian Priests) who claimed the Earth was the center of the universe. Get your facts straight....
So is something observed in the first person any less valid because it was a Christian that observed it? That would be circular reasoning. It isn't acceptable proof because a Christian observed it. And Christians aren't reliable because there's no acceptable proof of what they believe.
 
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ANDR3W is offline ANDR3W Post #32  October 27,2009, 5:28pm
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ming_on_mongo wrote :
Maybe I get 'em mixed up, but I always thought that "atheists" believe that there isn't a "deity", while "agnostics" just say "I dunno, one way or another"....

Agnosticism is compatible with both theism and atheism. A person can believe in a god (theism) without claiming to know for sure if that god exists; the result is agnostic theism. On the other hand, a person can disbelieve in gods (atheism) without claiming to know for sure that no gods can or do exist; the result is agnostic atheism.
YouTube - Part 2 -- Believers are agnostics.
 
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WeDesignOurLives is offline WeDesignOurLives Post #33  October 27,2009, 5:54pm
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ANDR3W wrote :
A person can believe in a god (theism) without claiming to know for sure if that god exists; the result is agnostic theism. On the other hand, a person can disbelieve in gods (atheism) without claiming to know for sure that no gods can or do exist; the result is agnostic atheism.
I take contention. There's no possibility of knowing because it's faith and not science so a person can't know god in the same way they know their name. So these terms are just accommodating lables like secular-Jew which I hear regularly. A person who says they know god exists is not saying they have real evidence but just claiming certainty.
 
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awol71 is offline awol71 Post #34  October 27,2009, 5:59pm
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ANDR3W wrote :
...Agnosticism is compatible with both theism and atheism. A person can believe in a god (theism) without claiming to know for sure if that god exists; the result is agnostic theism. On the other hand, a person can disbelieve in gods (atheism) without claiming to know for sure that no gods can or do exist; the result is agnostic atheism...
Tanks. That properly defines the terms, in a way that answers the question I had in the other thread.
 
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ANDR3W is offline ANDR3W Post #35  October 27,2009, 6:06pm
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WeDesignOurLives wrote :
I take contention. There's no possibility of knowing because it's faith and not science so a person can't know god in the same way they know their name. So these terms are just accommodating lables like secular-Jew which I hear regularly. A person who says they know god exists is not saying they have real evidence but just claiming certainty.

Types of agnosticism

Agnosticism can be subdivided into several subcategories. Recently suggested variations include:
Strong agnosticism (also called "hard," "closed," "strict," or "permanent agnosticism")the view that the question of the existence or nonexistence of a deity or deities and the nature of ultimate reality is unknowable by reason of our natural inability to verify any experience with anything but another subjective experience. A strong agnostic would say, "I cannot know whether a deity exists or not, and neither can you."Weak agnosticism (also called "soft," "open," "empirical," or "temporal agnosticism")the view that the existence or nonexistence of any deities is currently unknown but is not necessarily unknowable, therefore one will withhold judgment until/if any evidence is available. A weak agnostic would say, "I don't know whether any deities exist or not, but maybe one day when there is evidence we can find something out."Apathetic agnosticism (also called Pragmatic agnosticism)the view that there is no proof of either the existence or nonexistence of any deity, but since any deity that may exist appears unconcerned for the universe or the welfare of its inhabitants, the question is largely academic.[citation needed]Agnostic atheismthe view of those who do not claim to know of the existence of any deity, but do not believe in any.[12]Agnostic theism (also called "spiritual agnosticism")the view of those who do not claim to know of the existence of any deity, but still believe in such an existence. Søren Kierkegaard believed that knowledge of any deity is impossible, and because of that people who want to be theists must believe: "If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe." (See Knowledge vs. Beliefs.)Ignosticismthe view that a coherent definition of a deity must be put forward before the question of the existence of a deity can be meaningfully discussed. If the chosen definition isn't coherent, the ignostic holds the noncognitivist view that the existence of a deity is meaningless or empirically untestable. A.J. Ayer, Theodore Drange, and other philosophers see both atheism and agnosticism as incompatible with ignosticism on the grounds that atheism and agnosticism accept "a deity exists" as a meaningful proposition which can be argued for or against. An ignostic cannot even say whether he/she is a theist or a nontheist until a better definition of theism is put forth.Agnosticism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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awol71 is offline awol71 Post #36  October 27,2009, 6:48pm
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Hurray for "Pragmatic agnosticism". I'm not as apathetic about it as they let on, though. Maybe it's because I love academic questions.
 
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WeDesignOurLives is offline WeDesignOurLives Post #37  October 28,2009, 4:32pm
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ANDR3W wrote :
A weak agnostic would say, "I don't know whether any deities exist or not, but maybe one day when there is evidence we can find something out."
Right...and I'm saying it doesn't hold water and I explained why.... because until something exists you have to presume it doesn't, otherwise one can't really say "I don't know if
 
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awol71 is offline awol71 Post #38  October 28,2009, 6:09pm
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[QUOTE=WeDesignOurLives;781338]Right...and I'm saying it doesn't hold water and I explained why.... because until something exists you have to presume it doesn't, otherwise one can't really say "I don't know if
 
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WeDesignOurLives is offline WeDesignOurLives Post #39  October 29,2009, 3:47pm
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awol71 wrote :
The short explanation is that since god hasn't revealed itself to me, and since the evidence I have so far is not conclusive, then I can't say.
Well you just did... if the evidence isn't conclusive then it's not so. (And is there really any evidence?... not something you think MIGHT be evidence but that really is? The only evidence people are presenting are miracles.)

That doesn't mean it can never be so but right now you don't have evidence so you don't believe in god right now. That's an atheist.

"On the other hand, I find that some descriptions of god are consistent with my experience."

Ok, well there's no descriptions of god to be technical...there's speculations about what people want god to be.

"That doesn't mean that it makes no difference in other people's lives : that's entirely up to them."

Well I agree and that's why it's a belief and doesn't even enter into the realm of knowing.

"Until something new comes up (who knows when a god might reveal itself ) then I don't see why I should have to choose."

The only thing you're choosing to ignore the same premise of everything else that exists...that until something is true then it's not so and false by default (otherwise you'd then have to prove unicorns don't exist which makes no sense). And this is right in line with the agnostic 'evasive' (my claim) position.
Last edited by WeDesignOurLives; October 29,2009 at 3:50pm.
 
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ming_on_mongo is offline ming_on_mongo Post #40  October 31,2009, 1:58pm
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All the different "market segments" of agnosticism, theism, etc. aside, seems to me there's really only 2 basic categories.

Either you "believe" (in god, no god, the tooth fairy, beelzebub, etc.), or you just "don't know" (one way or the other). Is there really any other category, that's not just a subset of either of those two?
 
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