DennisWisconsin is offline DennisWisconsin Post #1  August 4,2009, 8:41am
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I hear it at work and just about everywhere. Our government is going to destroy our health care system.

What are the facts? If you have health care insurance, nothing will change.

What we need to change: People going without needed medical care or their medical care bankrupting their lives.

If you are lucky enough to have insurance, why would you deny someone who needs care? The truth is we are already footing their bills when uninsured people can't pay. We might as well pony up in advance.

It is less expensive to send them to the doctor than to send them to an emergency room.
 
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TaoShaffer is offline TaoShaffer Post #2  August 4,2009, 1:59pm
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I hear it at work and just about everywhere. Our government is going to destroy our health care system.
If we're talking about a form of government funded health insurance being instituted, it will changes a few things about the system. Particularly in the realm of doctor participation in programs, how freely individual doctors are to charge for their services, and overall hamper the system by snowing it in with government paperwork.

What are the facts? If you have health care insurance, nothing will change.
The amount you pay for taxes will change. You'll be shelling out more for other peoples' health care. Moreover the tax money being funneled into the system will be money that isn't going into other important programs. Like infrastructure or research.

What we need to change: People going without needed medical care or their medical care bankrupting their lives.
I'm not entirely callous to the plight of those people who can't afford medical care or who have undergone such expensive procedures that they are paying it off for the rest of their lives. But the simple fact remains the health care runs like any other business. They have highly trained professionals, shouldering astronomical responsibilities for people's health and recovery; these doctors should be paid for the hard work and dedication they put into their jobs. Not only the doctors, but the nurses who help them. Additionally modern facilities need to be continually built and maintained, medical equipment needs to be bought and maintained, Pharmaceuticals, etc., etc.

Health Care isn't an inexpensive business by far. Unless you want the military's style of medical care: "Motrin and Water. Oh and here's some stretches I found on internet that you can do, good luck!"

If you are lucky enough to have insurance, why would you deny someone who needs care? The truth is we are already footing their bills when uninsured people can't pay. We might as well pony up in advance.
Luck? Does it really come down to luck? My Mother is one of the hardest working people I know of. I wish my work ethic could hold a candle to hers and I'm no slouch. Without a college degree she was able to attain a junior executive position at H.R. Block and since moving away from them has been continually approached for promotion in other companies (she doesn't work to be an executive anymore). Is she Lucky to have health insurance? Or did she work for it? Should we be providing people who can't contribute much to society with expensive health coverage at our expense? I don't have enough money as it is. And my tax dollars are already spread thin. Moreover I don't trust a government run health anything.

I know there are exceptions. But at this point I am under the impression that people who want the most expensive health care, don't need the most expensive health care. There are sometimes other, less expensive methods that may not be as good as a silver bullet, but still work.

There are others that don't want to work hard enough to improve themselves to get the best health coverage. Your average Wal-Mart worker isn't someone who is entirely without the skills and faculties to get a decent job with a decent health plan. They just don't ambition to rise higher than that(I do have a few friends who work at Wal-Mart).

It is less expensive to send them to the doctor than to send them to an emergency room.
A pound of prevention is equal to ounce of cure. Old cliche, but still a great one. Why don't we implement a less expensive and farther reaching program of health education while pressuring the fast food industry to offer more inexpensive healthy foods in their stores? Why don't we tell people how to succeed in their health and empower them to do so all the while setting them up to win?

Why be retroactive when we can be proactive?

--Tao
Last edited by TaoShaffer; August 4,2009 at 2:13pm. Reason: Needed more proofreading
 
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chawks64 is offline chawks64 Post #3  August 4,2009, 2:31pm
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To be honest, I'm still on the fence about this one. I'm fully covered, mostly because I belong to a union. But I've been on the other side of the fence before, when I couldn't afford insurance and found a lump in my breast. One of the scariest things in my life. I was only without insurance for few months, so should I wait and hope it's not cancer, or go to the doctor, and when I do get insurance, it's a pre-existing condition? Not a good place to be.

TaoShaffer wrote :
Luck? Does it really come down to luck? My Mother is one of the hardest working people I know of. I wish my work ethic could hold a candle to hers and I'm no slouch. Without a college degree she was able to attain a junior executive position at H.R. Block and since moving away from them has been continually approached for promotion in other companies (she doesn't work to be an executive anymore). Is she Lucky to have health insurance? Or did she work for it? Should we be providing people who can't contribute much to society with expensive health coverage at our expense? I don't have enough money as it is. And my tax dollars are already spread thin. Moreover I don't trust a government run health anything.

I know there are exceptions. But at this point I am under the impression that people who want the most expensive health care, don't need the most expensive health care. There are sometimes other, less expensive methods that may not be as good as a silver bullet, but still work. And there are others that want to work hard enough to improve themselves to get the best health coverage. Your average Wal-Mart worker isn't someone who is entirely without the skills and faculties to get a decent job with a decent health plan. They just don't ambition to rise higher than that(I do have a few friends who work at Wal-Mart).
Yes. And no. It seems screwing up your life doesn't apply to just one segment of it. Many people who can't make the effort to work toward a decent job also can't make the effort to cook a decent meal. No wonder that they're unhealthy and needing extensive medical care. And it's frustrating when their options are a simple lifestyle change or major surgery, but the person just can't be bothered. It's too hard. But life IS hard. Get used to it.

On the other hand, there's my son. He graduated from high school and immediately got a great job, making 50% more than all of his friends. They're teaching him a useful trade that will make him a very good income in the future. But it only has major medical. Since the college classes he needs are during the work day, he can't go to college, so he can't be on my or his dad's insurance anymore. So he decided to discontinue his ADHD meds because the legally required appointments and the meds are just too expensive without his old insurance.

TaoShaffer wrote :
A pound of prevention is equal to ounce of cure. Old cliche, but still a great one. Why don't we implement a less expensive and farther reaching program of health education while pressuring the fast food industry to offer more inexpensive healthy foods in their stores? Why don't we tell people how to succeed in their health and empower them to do so all the while setting them up to win?

Why be retroactive when we can be proactive?

--Tao
I agree with you wholeheartedly, but unfortunately, we can't agree on a standard for what "healthy" is. My version is cutting back on sugar (and I've seen how very effective it is), but the standard thinking is still based on cutting out fat, which I believe I can eat freely. About the only things the two camps can agree on are free-range chicken, spinach and avocados.
 
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DennisWisconsin is offline DennisWisconsin Post #4  August 4,2009, 3:56pm
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TaoShaffer wrote :
If we're talking about a form of government funded health insurance being instituted, it will changes a few things about the system. Particularly in the realm of doctor participation in programs, how freely individual doctors are to charge for their services, and overall hamper the system by snowing it in with government paperwork.



The amount you pay for taxes will change. You'll be shelling out more for other peoples' health care. Moreover the tax money being funneled into the system will be money that isn't going into other important programs. Like infrastructure or research.



I'm not entirely callous to the plight of those people who can't afford medical care or who have undergone such expensive procedures that they are paying it off for the rest of their lives. But the simple fact remains the health care runs like any other business. They have highly trained professionals, shouldering astronomical responsibilities for people's health and recovery; these doctors should be paid for the hard work and dedication they put into their jobs. Not only the doctors, but the nurses who help them. Additionally modern facilities need to be continually built and maintained, medical equipment needs to be bought and maintained, Pharmaceuticals, etc., etc.

Health Care isn't an inexpensive business by far. Unless you want the military's style of medical care: "Motrin and Water. Oh and here's some stretches I found on internet that you can do, good luck!"



Luck? Does it really come down to luck? My Mother is one of the hardest working people I know of. I wish my work ethic could hold a candle to hers and I'm no slouch. Without a college degree she was able to attain a junior executive position at H.R. Block and since moving away from them has been continually approached for promotion in other companies (she doesn't work to be an executive anymore). Is she Lucky to have health insurance? Or did she work for it? Should we be providing people who can't contribute much to society with expensive health coverage at our expense? I don't have enough money as it is. And my tax dollars are already spread thin. Moreover I don't trust a government run health anything.

I know there are exceptions. But at this point I am under the impression that people who want the most expensive health care, don't need the most expensive health care. There are sometimes other, less expensive methods that may not be as good as a silver bullet, but still work.

There are others that don't want to work hard enough to improve themselves to get the best health coverage. Your average Wal-Mart worker isn't someone who is entirely without the skills and faculties to get a decent job with a decent health plan. They just don't ambition to rise higher than that(I do have a few friends who work at Wal-Mart).



A pound of prevention is equal to ounce of cure. Old cliche, but still a great one. Why don't we implement a less expensive and farther reaching program of health education while pressuring the fast food industry to offer more inexpensive healthy foods in their stores? Why don't we tell people how to succeed in their health and empower them to do so all the while setting them up to win?

Why be retroactive when we can be proactive?

--Tao
There is a crisis in this country, but maybe we should just tell these people to "just eat cake."

Are you willing to trade your health insurance coverage for the prescription you just wrote for those 'other' people with no insurance?

Education? People without insurance should be educated on how to eat properly and that is your answer? Education is not the answer to the plight of thirty plus million people without health care coverage.

We don’t have the best health system but we do have one of the most expensive systems.
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Last edited by DennisWisconsin; August 4,2009 at 4:04pm.
 
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Kestral is offline Kestral Post #5  August 4,2009, 4:41pm
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I just don't understand the basic idea that healthcare must be 'for profit', I know that the States places this ideal of making money on everything it can, but on the issue of people's health this one escapes me (and alot of the rest of the world). I realise there's alot of discussion on how it won't work, and why... but the time to address these types of issues is clearly upon you.
I hope you folks are able to cut through the retoric and arrive at some real answers, whatever form they may take.
 
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DennisWisconsin is offline DennisWisconsin Post #6  August 4,2009, 4:54pm
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I am surprised at how naive Americans really are. They don't want to pay for uninsured people to go to doctors. Who do they think is footing the bill now for uninsured people to go to the emergency room? This is cheap?
 
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WeDesignOurLives is offline WeDesignOurLives Post #7  August 4,2009, 5:49pm
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Kestral wrote :
I just don't understand the basic idea that healthcare must be 'for profit', .
yes!
yes!

Since there's no way to place a literal value on a human life then health care must be non-profit. It's just that simple. There's just no other incentive for prices to drop. And similarly I would put a monetary limit on a life... why should a doctor have to pay $50-$80k a year for medical insurance...horrible.
 
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TaoShaffer is offline TaoShaffer Post #8  August 4,2009, 6:41pm
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Education? People without insurance should be educated on how to eat properly and that is your answer? Education is not the answer to the plight of thirty plus million people without health care coverage.
Most health issues arise form poor lifestyle choices. Educate people on how to better take care of themselves and allow them to decide whether a bad ticker is OK at 45 in exchange for his big macs now.

Why should health care be free? Who's going to tell the doctors that their years of hard work at university and their arduous years as interns was so that they could accept low government pay?

We live (or used to at least) in a capitalist society where people are able and encouraged to make their own way and receive the fruits of their labor. Why should some bum get benefits when he won't contribute to society. That's what makes us so competitive within the world is we have a system that rewards those that can make things happen. And no it isn't a perfect system, but once you hybridize capitalism, you start slipping further and further into socialist and communistic systems. These systems don't have great track records and they tend to drag the systems around them down by draining resources.

What do you think doctors will want to do under socialized health care? They'll want to leave for greener pastures. Causing a drain on our human resources.

You cannot ask one smart and hard working person to shoulder the load of four others because the others either can't or won't work to improve their lifestyle. It's a terrible idea in the long run.

--Tao
Last edited by TaoShaffer; August 4,2009 at 6:44pm.
 
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awol71 is offline awol71 Post #9  August 4,2009, 6:59pm
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Kestral wrote :
I just don't understand the basic idea that healthcare must be 'for profit'
The funniest thing about radical capitalism is that it assumes that somehow all these irresponsible human agents are going to act completely rationally and morally as a whole. And they say socialism isn't realistic?!?

I am surprised at how naive Americans really are.
Yeah, me too.

TaoShaffer wrote :
Most health issues arise form poor lifestyle choices.
If you want to put a health-care tax on unhealthy foods and activities, go right ahead.

TaoShaffer wrote :
What do you think doctors will want to do under socialized health care? They'll want to leave for greener pastures.
I think the only green pasture without socialized health care is... the USA. Where will they go?

there's no way to place a literal value on a human life
You get my vote.

Think of free healthcare as your first mandatory humanitarian contribution. And, hopefully, a sign of more to come.
 
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Comedian is offline Comedian Post #10  August 5,2009, 5:44pm
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I think there is a huge divide between those that have good health care coverage and those that do not. When I had great health insurance I had NO IDEA how scary and dangerous the healthcare system was. I just went to the doctor when I needed to!
My husband was well-covered by health insurance when he developed cancer and died. I never worried if he would get chemoptherapy. (And remember, he was super fit and healthy. Not bad choices, bad genes killed him.)
Now I am minimally insured and have seen the system from both sides. The two sides are literally living in two different worlds. I am paying a huge portion of my income into insurance premiums, because my employer is too small to offer coverage. I am working and paying taxes!
I think public healthcare may be the only way to bring everyone into the same world. Nonetheless, I am uncomfortable with the idea.
 
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