Are Humanists Generally More Concerned With Human Rights?


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rix is offline rix Post #1  May 20,2009, 3:12am
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First of all, it was a bit of a dilemma on where to place this thread. Do I place it in politics, or spirituality on the main boards? Or perhaps, even the Christian singles group to gauge their response? But, since I value this group, I thought I would road test it here first.

I was sitting in one of the local coffee shops enjoying a book. And the local humanist chapter was in there conducting a meeting. I interacted with them for awhile, and they were cordial in extending an open invitation. And one of the issues they discussed, was concern over human rights abuses with the use of torture (or in the politically correct vernacular, "enhanced interrogation techniques").

And then, I became deeply troubled over the disparity as a "revelation" hit me like a bolt of lightening (of course I'm being a bit melodramatic, but I was momentarily troubled). More and more Christians are starting to identify themself with "left wing" causes such as poverty, global warming, and human rights abuses.

However, by far the largest demographic that approves the use of "enhanced interrogation techniques" is white evangelical Christians, usually males. It begs the question - How would Jesus torture? I found the disparity between "humanist" and "Christian" rather disturbing?

Especially since in "evangelical" circles, humanist is usually a derogatory term. I choose to only carry basic cable, so my only exposure to "fair and balanced" Fox News is when I visit my parents. And I happened to be there when attorney Jay Sekulow was on the Glen Beck show.

Attorney Jay Sekulow was instrumental in founding the right-wing based "counter ACLU" group known as the ACLJ. The ACLJ is often instrumental in portraying the ACLU as enemies of religious freedom (especially for the Christian). However, what they do not tell you, is that in "free-exercise" cases, the ACLU usually sides with "religious-liberty organizations" such as the ACLJ (Christianity Today Oct. 25, 1993 pg.23). However, they usually clash over "establishment" issues (However, that is in keeping with the spirit of the first amendment regarding church and state separation, protecting the rights of all, ironically).

Well anyways, here was Jay Sekulow, the long time advocate of "religious liberty," defending waterboarding on the Glen Beck show. And as I have mentioned, there are Christian groups, such as Jim Wallis' group Sojourners who have protested the Iraq War and human rights abuses and make a stand on issues such as poverty and the environment. However the disparity between "right wing" Christians, such as Sekulow, who advocate waterboarding, and "humanist groups" who oppose mistreatment is disturbing. Something is really rotten in Denmark!
Last edited by rix; May 20,2009 at 3:14am.
 
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DennisWisconsin is offline DennisWisconsin Post #2  May 20,2009, 1:32pm
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I think that you need a sensitivity adjustment on your nose.... The smell isn't coming from Denmark, it's coming from right here in the United States.

Some of the wealthy and large corporations in this country will do whatever it takes to protect their money and future incomes and they don't care if it involves torture or invading a whole country if necessary.

It is all about self-interest. Politicians talk about the interests of this country... more often they are really referring to the interests of the rich and powerful in this country.

They have a great machine in the right wing shock jocks and talk show hosts who bring on board near do wells who think that they are members of the right wing club. These people are being fooled of course as the rich just want their vote. In reality the rich wouldn't give these people even a nod on the street otherwise.

They also have on board the much (not all) of the Christian church. The church helps the masses stay in line with promises of heaven and threats of hell. The Christian church preaches from both sides of its mouth. If you're not Christian you will have a chance to change your ways and if you don't change you will be sent to hades on the fast track. We are using that fast track a lot these days over in Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Iraq.

So where do I stand? How can we actually tell what is behind all of this? We are Americanizing the world's cultures. Some of the worlds cultures are fighting to save their way of life while we are fighting to be an influence.
  • The question might be is there really a right or wrong here?
  • Are there really any rules when the -so called - enemy is sawing our heads off with lumber jack saws?
  • Are we still fighting the war of the survival of the fittest?
  • Is this part of natural selection?
.
Is there a difference between Humanists and Christians? Even liberals would see nothing wrong in showing an American movie overseas... possibly corrupting or at least influencing the youth of another culture...
 
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rix is offline rix Post #3  May 20,2009, 5:08pm
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Happy 1st Anniversary, babe!

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DennisWisconsin wrote :






  • The question might be is there really a right or wrong here?
  • Are there really any rules when the -so called - enemy is sawing our heads off with lumber jack saws?
  • Are we still fighting the war of the survival of the fittest?
  • Is this part of natural selection?
.
Is there a difference between Humanists and Christians? Even liberals would see nothing wrong in showing an American movie overseas... possibly corrupting or at least influencing the youth of another culture...

Awesome...totally awesome post Dennis! [ I say that with the totally blown away expression of Spiccoli (Sean Penn) in "Fast Times" (Also, because I'm stoned )].

Yes...showing images of fanatical Jihadists sawing off heads produces a "shock factor" that compells the masses to want to respond in kind. And also, shows like "24" desensitize viewers into believing that "the end jusifies the means." Next thing you know, they are at Dick Cheney sponsored garage sales looking for medieval torture devices.

And inciting lust by airing Baywatch in Baghdad is hardly comparable to encouraging acts of inhumanity. And those who seek acts of revenge often become like the original perpetrators of inhumanity. Therefore, we as a nation must "turn the other cheek" and seek the moral high ground. And not give into the baser impulses of the darker side of our nature.

I love the line of questioning you've started here! And the way you have stimulated ground for further intellectual discussion. I hope to dwell on the questions further, and contribute in further detail at a later date.

As for still fighting the war of "survival of the fittest?" I seriously wonder sometimes! The "best and the brightest" do not always propagate their kind. I found it amusing when I recently read about free viagra prescriptions for the unemployed, a highly significant case in point.
Last edited by rix; May 20,2009 at 5:08pm. Reason: @nal perfectionism
 
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DennisWisconsin is offline DennisWisconsin Post #4  May 21,2009, 2:51am
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And those who seek acts of revenge often become like the original perpetrators of inhumanity. Therefore, we as a nation must "turn the other cheek" and seek the moral high ground. And not give into the baser impulses of the darker side of our nature.


I agree with you... Isn't it civility, democracy, and justice that we are claiming to be brining to the world?
 
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WeDesignOurLives is offline WeDesignOurLives Post #5  May 21,2009, 4:25am
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DennisWisconsin wrote :
And those who seek acts of revenge often become like the original perpetrators of inhumanity. Therefore, we as a nation must "turn the other cheek" and seek the moral high ground. And not give into the baser impulses of the darker side of our nature.

I agree with you... Isn't it civility, democracy, and justice that we are claiming to be brining to the world?
I absolutely abhor the notion that 'higher moral grounding' means pacifism. Obviously,,,,very very very obviously,,, if there were a non-violent way to stopping evil we, anyone, would choose it.

High moral ground mean being caring about the most lives in the most effective way. If that means serious action then so be it. Talking first, fine, but if you don't get reasonable results you really may have to take physical action. People actually do get surgery on occasion to fix medical problems with other less invasive solutions don't work. Is that surgeon somehow not acting on 'higher moral ground'?

Humanists...oh please... "they're not attacking us so why are we attacking them' (simple...because when I walk down the street and see you being assaulted help you! When you stop the assailant you remove threat/evil from EVERYONE!)

Oh...my gosh, this is a terrible time in America. Really. My heart just sinks when I think of how we give permission to evil.
 
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DennisWisconsin is offline DennisWisconsin Post #6  May 21,2009, 4:16pm
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WeDesignOurLives wrote :
I absolutely abhor the notion that 'higher moral grounding' means pacifism. Obviously,,,,very very very obviously,,, if there were a non-violent way to stopping evil we, anyone, would choose it.

High moral ground mean being caring about the most lives in the most effective way. If that means serious action then so be it. Talking first, fine, but if you don't get reasonable results you really may have to take physical action. People actually do get surgery on occasion to fix medical problems with other less invasive solutions don't work. Is that surgeon somehow not acting on 'higher moral ground'?

Humanists...oh please... "they're not attacking us so why are we attacking them' (simple...because when I walk down the street and see you being assaulted help you! When you stop the assailant you remove threat/evil from EVERYONE!)

Oh...my gosh, this is a terrible time in America. Really. My heart just sinks when I think of how we give permission to evil.
This is what gave me the impression that you were religious. Evil is a (non-exclusive) Christian concept that doesn't exist... They could just as easily say that we are the evil ones when we bomb them with mindless drones...

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Last edited by DennisWisconsin; May 21,2009 at 4:19pm. Reason: Because it was all screwed up
 
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WeDesignOurLives is offline WeDesignOurLives Post #7  May 22,2009, 8:29am
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DennisWisconsin wrote :
This is what gave me the impression that you were religious. Evil is a (non-exclusive) Christian concept that doesn't exist... They could just as easily say that we are the evil ones when we bomb them with mindless drones...
I, nor anyone, can reasonably debate a claim that evil is a Christian concept. I am an atheist and it seem pretty damn obvious that events such as the Holocaust or torturing/killing a dog are acts of evil. If you want to play the game that evil is religious because it's derived from "devil" (the only explanation I can come up with) well that's not legit to me.

I also can't debate that questionable (bad) actions take place in pursuit of good. It's the basic bad apple theory. It doesn't have any bearing on the larger goal...freedom for those who are oppresed.

It all comes down to a simple question for me....what am I willing to give up for the freedom of others.
 
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DennisWisconsin is offline DennisWisconsin Post #8  May 24,2009, 5:22pm
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If you think you have freedom in this country you haven't travelled much...

And what kind of freedom are you talking about? Freedom from poverty? Freedom from religion? Freedom from discrimination?

I don't disagree on the word evil as it is defined in most dictionaries that I've looked it up in; however, the popular use of the word and when Christians use the word they are talking about someone they think is influenced by the devil. I have never heard an atheist use the term... but then there is a first for everything...
 
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awol71 is offline awol71 Post #9  May 24,2009, 6:03pm
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DennisWisconsin wrote :
And what kind of freedom are you talking about? Freedom from poverty? Freedom from religion? Freedom from discrimination?
If I had said that, I would have meant freedom to decide our future. Responsibility.

The objectionable thing about religion isn't that it characterizes things as good and bad. If those judgments happen to coincide with an atheist's good and bad, what does it matter?

Religion is objectionable when it takes a human being's fate out of his or her own hands and puts it in the hands of a god (or what not).
 
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DennisWisconsin is offline DennisWisconsin Post #10  May 24,2009, 6:35pm
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awol71 wrote :
If I had said that, I would have meant freedom to decide our future. Responsibility.

The objectionable thing about religion isn't that it characterizes things as good and bad. If those judgments happen to coincide with an atheist's good and bad, what does it matter?

Religion is objectionable when it takes a human being's fate out of his or her own hands and puts it in the hands of a god (or what not).
Religion is objectional because it is derived from snake oil...
 
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