awol71 is offline awol71 Post #1  May 16,2009, 7:29am
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Quite a few topics here have been started here with some difference between the behavior of religious folks and that of atheists (and / or agnostics). For instance : Is one group more free? Is one group more hypocritical? Is one group more tolerant? And so on.

These are all interesting questions but I don't want to repeat those discussions here. Rather, I propose that we identify and maybe discuss a little the fundamental differences between our various positions. So, the question in this topic is the following :

Which are the beliefs that really matter ?
Where are the substantial differences ?

As a simplistic example, one might try to argue that : having religious beliefs inspires fear of doing evil things, over and above the natural consequences of our actions; therefore the religious are more moral. What is the substantial difference here? It is not the religious belief. It is the perceived greater likelihood that a person would lack morals. The proper line for a counter-argument is to show that there is no lack of morality, even in the absence of religious beliefs. Arguing whether the religious belief, whatever it may be, is true or not doesn't address the real worry at all in this case.

Often, when people talk past each other (and eventually move on to worse things), it's because they haven't taken the time to clear up what it is they are really disagreeing about. Religion is a great example because although some people simply reject it completely and with seemingly no discrimination, it seems pretty clear that it should make a world of difference which religion we are talking about.

(I'll bring up some more points in the posts following. Feel free to post your points and/or questions starting... now.)
 
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awol71 is offline awol71 Post #2  May 16,2009, 12:18pm
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This is one of my pet peeves : the relationship between religion and science. Some people automatically equate religion with myth-mongering, and others automatically equate atheism with religion-hating. Both of these views are mistaken, in my opinion.

Very few people reject science entirely, for proper reasons. The notion that planes, trains and automobiles are powered by god has been on the wane for some time now. I don't think there are many places left on Earth where it is still acceptable to think so. Science isn't just about evolution and relativity. Most of the applications of science are just down to earth engineering and observations about how things work. And to say that "science" is a very recent addition to human culture is an over-simplification. Engineering is nothing new. Atomic theories have been around for a very long time, even though they became "scientific" only recently.

Very few people reject religion (or, more generally, "spirituality") entirely, for proper reasons. An oft quoted line by Albert Einstein reads : "What I see in Nature is a magnificent structure that we can comprehend only very imperfectly, and that must fill a thinking person with a feeling of 'humility.' This is a genuinely religious feeling that has nothing to do with mysticism." It is rather difficult to tell what the word "religious" is refering to here. Religion is by no means an easy target. Complete rejection of it is usually identified with reductionism and materialism (although this is a little misleading), a position regarded with suspicion. And noone refuses to acknowledge religion as a cultural/historical phenomenon.

The first question isn't why religion rejects science, because is is not true that all religions reject all of science. For the most part, the main religious movements of today recognize science's authority in its field of competence. The question is rather : why is it that some members reject some scientific theories? (And which theories? Heliocentrism isn't usually in doubt. Evolution, on the other hand, is more often criticized. Why?)

The second question isn't why science rejects religion, because many scientists are actually affiliated with mainstream religions. Many, perhaps even most, reserve judgment or recognize religion's authority in its field of competence. (Thanks to rix for fishing out the Stephen Hawking quote, "I don't do God questions!") The question is rather : why is it that some people reject some religious concepts? (And, again, which ones? Biblical literalism comes to mind as one of those more often criticized. Why?)
 
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DennisWisconsin is offline DennisWisconsin Post #3  May 17,2009, 4:42am
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The catholic church actually has scientists on its payroll so that the whole "Earth is the center of the universe" type fiasco doesn't happen again. It would like to keep science within religous boundries...

I would say that the Catholic church specifically and many religions are evil except that I don't believe that evil exists as it is defined. I prefer discussion on the possible make up of the universe as opposed to the "this is how it is" approach that most if not all the religions take.

It is a matter of arrogance. Religions are arrogant to think they know that heaven is a fact. I suppose early on it kept people from offing themselves. They do talk about faith but they act as if heaven and hell are real...

Religion is the greatest hoax in the history of mankind.
 
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awol71 is offline awol71 Post #4  May 17,2009, 9:10am
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DennisWisconsin wrote :
The catholic church actually has scientists on its payroll so that the whole "Earth is the center of the universe" type fiasco doesn't happen again. It would like to keep science within religous boundries...

I would say that the Catholic church specifically and many religions are evil except that I don't believe that evil exists as it is defined. I prefer discussion on the possible make up of the universe as opposed to the "this is how it is" approach that most if not all the religions take.

It is a matter of arrogance. Religions are arrogant to think they know that heaven is a fact. I suppose early on it kept people from offing themselves. They do talk about faith but they act as if heaven and hell are real...

Religion is the greatest hoax in the history of mankind.
I don't know about the "evil" part myself, but I'm pretty much agreed with the rest.

Religion has been moving steadily towards a personal and subjective (some say spiritual) zone. Which is where it should be. Bad religions are a dying breed. In my little corner of the world, the Catholic church has lost so much ground in the past hundred years it's almost unbelievable. The only reason it's still around is that it has evolved. There will probably always be some conservatives, but their numbers are dropping. As I see it, religious extremists are slowly being marginalized (and even ostracized) by local and global communities. Most of the world opposes them not out of "ungodliness", but because the fanatics are simply dangerous, as many recent events have shown. Freedom of religion is like any other freedom, it does have rational limits.

There is certainly a long ways to go still. Pretty much all institutional religions have overstepped their limits at one time or another, and have made themselves into a hoax as a result. However, slowly (hopefully surely), we're witnessing a gradual separation of church and science, separation of church and state, etc.

One day, some people stopped accepting that things were as described in the Bible (or whatever other book) and started discussing alternative explanations and alternative ways of going about things. And lots of great things came about. (This is not just about holy books : in geometry, for example, there was Euclid.) These great things themselves are evidence that critical thinking is an extremely effective tool. Religion is definitely a bad influence when it gets out of its sandbox, and has the track record to show it. Whether by saying that the world is 6000 years old or by sending people to war.

The opposition is actually more general than just towards science. Religion gets in trouble when it comes up against critical thinking. On the one hand, we have explanations based on critical thinking (such as those fueled by experimental facts and provided by science). On the other hand, we have what is written in the holy books. When they disagree, which should we prefer? It seems rather odd that god's revelation would be in apparent contradiction with god's creation. And this is perhaps why we may want to call religion "arrogant" at this point. I like to summarise that feeling with the question, "Why did god give me a brain if I'm not supposed to use it?"

But there remains a space for religion nonetheless.

In science, it is essential that we be able to agree on the facts under study. A good scientific result is one that can be measured by anyone, in an experiment that anyone can reproduce. Given these requirements, things that can't be measured objectively are considered unscientific by definition. That is far from saying that they don't exist at all. Just look up "mathematical realism" to see how confusing the question "does is exist" can be (the interested reader can find a good synopsis under "philosophy of mathematics" on Wikipedia). Clearly, you don't run into "the number one" (and other mathematical concepts) when walking to work; and yet it is clearly not "imaginary" in the same sense that a unicorn is imaginary. Basing the whole of science and many other things besides on unicorns somehow just doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

What science can do is tell you which neurons are firing. It can tell you what 94.3% of the population say they are feeling when those neurons fire. But it can't tell you exactly how that is going to feel to you. And it is very doubtful that science will ever be able to move into this field. The reason isn't that feelings don't exist : it's that noone else can "introspect your feelings." Psychology is essentially behavioristic for that very reason : it can describe what people do, it can collect all sorts of statistics on what people say the feel, but it can't directly measure the subjective experiences that people are acting upon and talking about. Some old sayings are true, "If you've never been in love, it's impossible for you to understand what love is." As the Einstein quote suggests, this is religion's proper place if there is one.

Ew. That turned out to be longer than I thought it would be.
 
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DennisWisconsin is offline DennisWisconsin Post #5  May 17,2009, 4:55pm
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Have you travelled the bible belt much? In the last year I've spent a lot of time in Texas and North Carolina. States like Mississippi, Tennessee, and Kentucky will also surprise you. In Dallas here I gave up on the radio... There are at least 4 religious stations and even the ones that aren't religious, you can't listen for more than an hour without hearing someone talking about being reborn...

Lord I've been saved! That statement always has me baffled... Saved from what? Baby... nothing is going to keep you from dying and leaving this planet...
Last edited by DennisWisconsin; May 17,2009 at 4:58pm.
 
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awol71 is offline awol71 Post #6  May 18,2009, 5:53am
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No, I haven't been there. I'm relying on your info to see how much progress has been made down there.
 
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fino4beat is offline fino4beat Post #7  May 18,2009, 11:39am
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DennisWisconsin wrote :
Have you travelled the bible belt much? In the last year I've spent a lot of time in Texas and North Carolina. States like Mississippi, Tennessee, and Kentucky will also surprise you. In Dallas here I gave up on the radio... There are at least 4 religious stations and even the ones that aren't religious, you can't listen for more than an hour without hearing someone talking about being reborn...

Lord I've been saved! That statement always has me baffled... Saved from what? Baby... nothing is going to keep you from dying and leaving this planet...
But what if I believe in reincarnation? Suppose I believe I can sc rew up as much as I like NOW, and just have myself an epic do-over next time around?
Last edited by fino4beat; May 18,2009 at 11:40am. Reason: I think I make typos just so I can type something smarta$$ in this box....
 
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DennisWisconsin is offline DennisWisconsin Post #8  May 18,2009, 12:48pm
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fino4beat wrote :
But what if I believe in reincarnation? Suppose I believe I can sc rew up as much as I like NOW, and just have myself an epic do-over next time around?
He!! you can believe what you want to believe. If your conciousness ends at death, you won't know you're dead. You won't know you're not in heaven, and you won't know that you aren't reincarnated...

That's the beauty of owning a church. You can sell any product that you want to sell and you don't have to prove it's true... I've never heard any church offer a money back guarantee that there is a heaven and even if they did, when you're dead, you're hardly in a position to collect.
 
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fino4beat is offline fino4beat Post #9  May 19,2009, 12:46pm
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DennisWisconsin wrote :
He!! you can believe what you want to believe. If your conciousness ends at death, you won't know you're dead. You won't know you're not in heaven, and you won't know that you aren't reincarnated...

That's the beauty of owning a church. You can sell any product that you want to sell and you don't have to prove it's true... I've never heard any church offer a money back guarantee that there is a heaven and even if they did, when you're dead, you're hardly in a position to collect.
How do you know? What if I'm being awesomely wicked in THIS life (and theoretically that's a bad thing, right? ) and I'm punished by returning next time around as an IRS agent? Everyone will hate me, which su cks. But I'll collect, bwaaa haahaaaaaaaa
Last edited by fino4beat; May 19,2009 at 12:48pm. Reason: Not evil enough!!! Need...more....evil.....
 
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DennisWisconsin is offline DennisWisconsin Post #10  May 21,2009, 4:29pm
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Has anyone ever told you that you are a very bizarre woman? lol
 
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