last12C is offline last12C Post #1  March 16,2009, 7:02pm
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Brutal honesty here! I know what Scripture teaches about it. You know what Scripture teaches about it. I have seen countless threads pop up on this subject that totally skirt the trueconcerns with this to a frustrating degree and therefore do not even address the issues, delivering no helpful information whatsoever. Sanctimonious rants and judgmental sentiments are of absolutely no value on this subject. What are the cold, hard factors involved with this IRL?
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I came to my faith late in life and to be perfectly honest “abstinence” was never in my vocabulary when I was young. I wish it had been, but I’m not in the habit of crying over spilled milk. Yes, I was a wild child. And as a result of that[/i][/b] it is kind of scary to me to think about marrying someone that I am not certain I will be “sexually compatible” with. But only because of my sexual history[/i][/b]. I think that this issue is of far more concern to those of us who have [/i]been sexually active, whether premarital or marital, than to those who have not. Because of my history I am familiar with bad sex. Because of my history I know what it is like to tolerate mediocre, disconnected sex. Because of my history I know that not all people are physically compatible – that there truly are[/i] some physical and mechanical problems that cannot be fixed. Because of my history I know that there are physical, mental and emotional factors involved, any one of which can make physical intimacy less than satisfactory. Because of my history I know that dissatisfaction in the bedroom has a powerful impact on the overall satisfaction one has with a relationship. Because of my history I know how much more spectacular sex is with someone who you are truly committed to emotionally – who you trust beyond all others - who you have vowed to bind yourself to until death do you part. Because of my history I am well acquainted with regret.
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To put it bluntly, many of us are out on our second run, whether due to divorce or widowhood. We have history. Some more than others. Some of us have been terribly[/i] burnt on this issue. Many if not most, of the men that I date at this late age – all of whom have history – have overwhelming fears about the sexual spigot being turned off over time. How do we deal with this issue from both the perspective of the one who fears and the one who is dealing with someone with those fears[/i]?
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I believe that one is capable of reclaiming abstinence, even if one has a history. I believe that rocking[/b] premarital sex is absolutely[/i][/b] no guarantee of continuing physical bliss once the ring is on the finger. I believe that it is absolutely fruitless to attempt to minimize this issue and get off on a tangent regarding all of the many other blessings that marriage provides to us. This is a very[/b] serious issue[/i]. How do we negotiate it? Does the idea frighten you that you will one day marry someone and then discover that there are insurmountable incompatibilities? Are there insurmountable incompatibilities? What kinds of things can we look for that can serve as a reliable barometer for sexual compatibility? What does one do when they are confronted with serious incompatibilities with a spouse? In the end, it is not only a question of how important this issue is to you – it is very likely that it will be an important issue to those that you encounter in your dating experience. I truly believe that it is a fierce battle between wanting to be obedient to our faith and pure, unadulterated carnal fear.
 
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winn is offline winn Post #2  March 16,2009, 8:25pm

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I'm glad you started this thread, Valerie. I did state in another thread that, despite having been married before and not being a virgin anymore, I still have in my mind that I would like to abstain from premarital sex as I wait to remarry. I realize that i will probably remarry someone who is more likely a widower or a divorcee, probably less likely someone who has never been married before.Either way, regardless of whether that person has also had sex before or not, in my mind it is important for me to claim my sexuality for that man within the bounds of marriage, helping him see that I am exclusively his. I would also hope that he would do the same for me so that, when we get to our marriage bed, we might claim that place as pure in God's eyes and ours as an exclusive place for our love to flourish. I don't think I am being naive in wanting this. I think, even though it would be a second relationship, it is a new one and should be looked at in that way. This is a way to take those incompatibilities and concentrate on making them compatible and growing an intimacy that purifies the past sexual encounters and future ones with that mate to make a life long committment.
 
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winn is offline winn Post #3  March 16,2009, 8:38pm

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Having said that, I don't think there are such things as insurmountable incompatibilities. While I agree that as Christians, one should wait for marriage to have sex, that doesn't mean that you cannot talk about it before hand. If you are ready as a couple to marry, then you better be ready as a couple to talk about sex as well as how you are going to do the finances, where are you going to live, whether you will have children or not. Sex is such a key ingredient to a good marriage, it is important to talk before doing. That includes talking about what you liker and don't like, what turns you on and what turns you off. We are dealing, generally, with experienced people here so, even as Christians who want to abstain until marriage, we can still put our money where our mouth is and speak up so the first night is not going to be a big disappointment to both of you.
 
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last12C is offline last12C Post #4  March 16,2009, 8:49pm
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Ah, Winnie, my stalwart warrior! I knew that I could depend on you to have the courage to venture a touch on this one :-) I love you! Tell me this: what kinds of things can you think of that would give you some indication that a fellow is potentially "compatible" with you in this area? What would you look for? What would you consider to be a red flag that might indicate potential problems? And banking on my suspicion that many men are going to have some real fears in this area - including very godly men - how should we approach this subject with them? What would this conversation(s) sound like? I think that we all have a picture in our hearts and in our heads what the "ideal" would be like. What if we marry our perfect mate and things fizzle when the rubber hits the road? (Ooops, I guess that may be viewed as a very bad pun, LOL!) How do we recover and move forward to find something moresatisfying to both parties?


BTW y'all, don't be timid! Don't think that you have to divulge any personal information for public viewin order to discuss the issues or simply ask the questions that you might have on your mind.
 
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vapsman88 is offline vapsman88 Post #5  March 16,2009, 9:00pm
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Well this is certainly an interesting topic and complex, apparently. I personally have given this topic some thought over the last year myself.


I have had 2 LTRs that obviously had a sexual aspect to them. Actually there ended up being no emotional security in either one as it turned out. Both ended badly for me emotionally, and I think I am basically over the negativity but I guess you never really know.


I have made some serious mental shifts in this area over the last year and now feel that an intimate or sexual relationship has to be connected to a loving relationship and within the confines of a marriage. Too many people view it as an olympic event or something without an emotional component. I have to disagree though and I'll bet most people, especially women would want an emotional connection. So I can't speak for anyone else but me and say that intimacy has to be connected with a loving relationship within a binding contract such as marriage. Though I envy my Grandparents as they celebrated 60 years anniversary shortly before they passed. They seemed still very much in love and connected even then.


I don't really understand the compatibility issue, and what could be insurmountable imcompatibilities? The only one I can envision is the lack of passion on one or other of the partners in mariage. like Valarie states that even "rocking premarital sex is absolutely no guarantee of continuing physical bliss once the ring is on the finger". Obviously there should be some discussion about the subject between two people, but I don't think it is a "Deal Breaker" as is the current term.


I am still vague about the Biblical view but think I unerstand the basics, maybe not the details in scriptures.
 
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winn is offline winn Post #6  March 16,2009, 9:42pm

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I think you are definitely on the right track Vapsmann and to answer Val's innumerable questions would send you all to sleep, even though we're talking sex cause I can go on for hours...err....okay...maybe bad wording....I could talk for hours, How's that?


AnywaysNow that I have embarassed myself, To answer Val's first question, Things that I could think of to let me know if someone is potentially compatible?...hmmm...thinking cap is on and engaged....I think the very first thing for me is whether he would be willing to wait until marriage or not. Overheated passion would definitely help me know whether I'm going to have to put his brakes on and tell him that we need to do some talking. To take this answer to a personal level: For example, in my first marriage, just because we had a good relationship and were good in bed does not mean that some learning was not involved on both parts of the equation. He had to learn to slow down and I had to learn to turn it up a notch (how's that for being blunt?). We were not immediately compatible and I had to also be verbal about saying what i would not do before we were married and what I would not do in the bedroom.


So I guess I would have to say I'd look for> a willingness to talk


an emotional connection (as Vapsmann alluded to)


a desire on both sides for compromise


a desire to learn from each other and teach each other


a desire on both sides to sometimes settle for less for yourself in order to give your partner more


These looked for things have their basis in a Bible text that means quite a bit to me since it was my marriage text> Colossians 3: 12-14> "Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity."


If you can't translate this verse to the most intimate setting in your married life, how are you going to do that with the most mundane parts of your married life? If you can make love with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience and bear with each other, you've got a great sex life even if you are not always compatible.
 
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vapsman88 is offline vapsman88 Post #7  March 16,2009, 10:04pm
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winn,534532 wrote :

I think you are definitely on the right track Vapsmann and to answer Val's innumerable questions would send you all to sleep, even though we're talking sex cause I can go on for hours...err....okay...maybe bad wording....I could talk for hours, How's that?


Anyways Now that I have embarassed myself, To answer Val's first question, Things that I could think of to let me know if someone is potentially compatible?...hmmm...thinking cap is on and engaged....I think the very first thing for me is whether he would be willing to wait until marriage or not. Overheated passion would definitely help me know whether I'm going to have to put his brakes on and tell him that we need to do some talking. To take this answer to a personal level: For example, in my first marriage, just because we had a good relationship and were good in bed does not mean that some learning was not involved on both parts of the equation. He had to learn to slow down and I had to learn to turn it up a notch (how's that for being blunt?). We were not immediately compatible and I had to also be verbal about saying what i would not do before we were married and what I would not do in the bedroom.


So I guess I would have to say I'd look for> a willingness to talk


an emotional connection (as Vapsmann alluded to)


a desire on both sides for compromise


a desire to learn from each other and teach each other


a desire on both sides to sometimes settle for less for yourself in order to give your partner more


These looked for things have their basis in a Bible text that means quite a bit to me since it was my marriage text> Colossians 3: 12-14> "Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity."


If you can't translate this verse to the most intimate setting in your married life, how are you going to do that with the most mundane parts of your married life? If you can make love with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience and bear with each other, you've got a great sex life even if you are not always compatible.

Hey Winnie,


I didn't know that verse, but how could you go wrong if you use that verse to live all aspects of you life. That is especially meaningful to the intimate aspects of a marriage, I will have to remember that one.
 
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last12C is offline last12C Post #8  March 17,2009, 8:55am
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I think the term “insurmountable” as I am using it here can be subjective and that the final defining characteristic is whether one or both are willing and capable of working together for a solution or a compromise. Sexual dysfunction is common and the instances increase with age. The types of incompatibilities are many. Physical: issues with impotency related to health issues, primarily cardiovascular in nature, especially in diabetic demographics. This can also be caused by a number of other medical problems and can even be a side effect to many medications (as evidenced by the popularity of products targeted to this area). Problems with pain during intercourse is more common in females than some would suspect. Problems associated with menopause, problems associated with aging, limitations associated with physical illness or disability to name a few. Emotional / mental: significant differences in libido, past abuse, negative or fearful attitudes toward sex, past experiences with a former partner who either refused sex or was overly demanding, addictive needs for practices that may be viewed as aberrant or distasteful to a partner are examples. I am sure that if there were a hundred people participating in this thread many other examples would surface.
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The point that I am trying to make is that I do not believe that it is realistic to assume that everything is going to “work” to the satisfaction of both partners. Or that "love can conquer all". Such difficulties can and have had very serious repercussions in marriages. Problems in this area have the potential of causing embarrassment, lack of self-esteem, defensiveness, fear, resentment, loss of trust, a sense of betrayal, destructive temptation and any number of other consequences that can create tremendous strain on a marriage. I think that it is dangerous to assume that this subject can be glossed over in any way, dressed up in Christian lingo, or simply minimized or ignored. These are very real problems that can cause very real difficulties in a marriage relationship.
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I think one aspect of this is the perception of a contract that is agreed upon when entering into marriage. Most people have expectations. Everyone is quick to agree that an honest conversation on this subject at some point prior to marriage is essential. But we have to realize also that this subject is a very delicate one for some. Some may be hesitant to mention or may be apt to downplay problems that they have – either out of fear of rejection or out of an earnest belief that it will be “different” this time, with this person – or possibly because a person has absolutely no idea (in the case of virginity or a long period of abstinence) that a problem exists. Some may be in denial about their problems. If a woman was to enter into marriage with a man who had severe problems with impotence without a full and honest understanding of this issue it can be expected that it may become a problem. If a man was to enter into a marriage with a woman who had pain problems or who had emotional issues tied to past abuse, the honeymoon is not the best time to find out it. At times, in the enthusiasm of the “honeymoon period” problems can be concealed only to surface later. When a reasonable (as defined by the individual) expectation is not met it can lead to feelings that a trust was betrayed, an agreement not honored, or simply a disappointment so great that it is difficult to overcome – all of which can impact the very foundations of a relationship. I have seen all of the above cited in Christian[/i] marriage counseling scenarios. So this is real.
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How much compromise is reasonable for one to expect a partner to accept? I think that women can have their need for intimacy satisfied much easier than a man. Many women can be perfectly happy with simply being held. That is much more difficult for a man. How far are you willing to go to resolve problems, to work together to come up with creative ways to improve satisfaction? How far are you willing to amp up or to amp down in order to accommodate your partner? How much compromise to you expect from your partner? What lines are you not willing to cross? What would constitute a deal breaker for you? Don’t consider that to be a laundry list of questions to answer – they are just talking points to get the cerebral juices flowing.
 
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JasonX43 is offline JasonX43 Post #9  March 17,2009, 10:58am
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Although I've only had one LTR, I did make a few "friends" in my party days. I do think that the Bible warns us of premarital sex because of the affect sex has on the relationship. Now, I truly believe that sex is the last wall of intimacy that should come down. It's led to me checking out girls' personalities instead of their bodies and it's the reason I'm still single right now. I'd rather find myself a good Christian woman that would slap me if I touched her inappropriately before we were married, than a girl that thinks that dating for two to three months is enough time for us to start gettin' busy(and yes, there are girls out there that are like that)!
 
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paulabbc is offline paulabbc Post #10  March 17,2009, 12:57pm
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last12C,534913 wrote :
I think the term “insurmountable” as I am using it here can be subjective and that the final defining characteristic is whether one or both are willing and capable of working together for a solution or a compromise.

Well, for me, I'd just be glad to have any at all...


OK, just kidding - sorta.


When my late husband became ill, sex became virtually non-existent for the remainder of our marriage (7 years of famine, so to speak.) He's been gone 7 years now. It's been a LONG time... (And I will wait until I am married because I feel that is the Biblical requirement, and if that never happens, then, well, I've lived without it this long.)


But I vaguely remember that, for the most part, compatibility seemed to run directly relational to the status of the rest of the marriage. Everything else could be discussed. And I believe that is the key. Frequency, expectations and problems that develop are best dealt with by communication.


As with me, anything can happen in a marriage that causes the sex to be an issue. We just chose not to let it cause a problem, but to grow through it. What I'm saying is you could spend hours discussing it, deciding that this person or that is closer to compatibility than the other, etc., get married, go along fine for a bit, and something can happen to interfere. What would you do then? How would you handle it? Sex is only one component of a good strong marriage. If I could have my husband back, but never again be able to have sex, I'd be willing to because I loved HIM. Sex was only one way to express that love.


So, to sum it up, I think with the quoted text above you answered your own question, LOL. Before marrying (again or for the first time) you better make dang sure that the other person can talk through ALL issues and that you can "work together for a solution or a compromise." As the scriptures say, "He that is faithful in little is faithful in much." If you can work on other issues together to solve them, there is no reason to believe sex can't be one of them. If you can't work out other issues, then there is slim to no chance of being able to work this issue out, either.


It has been my experience that a poor sex life is more a result of larger issues within a marriage and very seldom an issue of "incompatibility." I mean, let's face it, everything fits where it's supposed to and works basically the same way, regardless of the models.


Did I muddy the waters enough for everyone???


In His Grip,


Paula
 
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