PreachersSon is online now PreachersSon Post #1  May 2,2010, 2:01pm
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Okay, I'm not sure how to explain this without sounding like I'm patting myself on the back, but hear me out. I don't make friends easily, but when I do, I'm good at it. I'm good at listening, knowing when to sympathize and when to try to be helpful, understanding the other person's needs, making time for them, etc. That's why I have several strong friendships with women in my life. I'm close with my Mom, my sister, several female cousins, and at least one of my aunts (My mom's kid sister, who is only a few years older than me) as well as the preacher's daughter at my old church, and several other women. (Of course it's not exclusively women, I have plenty of guy friends too, including a mix of family and non-family as well.) These aren't casual, hi/bye relationships, but real friendships.

So, the problem is, I'm good at relationships, but bad at dating. I've done pretty well in the romantic relationships I've had, as far as the relationship goes. And I do okay sending cards and flowers and such within a relationship. I don't navigate the maze of dating to get to a relationship well, however. The dating rituals don't have any real bearing on having a real relationship as far as I can see, but you have to ace them before most women will give you a chance.

I never know how soon is too soon to send roses, for instance. Is that too forward on a first date (or a first meeting, after time in OC on eHarmony)? When is it an insult not to try for a kiss? (Personally, I believe in "no touch" until marriage, or at least engagement, but I've had women tell me they felt insulted that I didn't try to kiss them after an exceptional first date. Not that they would have let me, but it was some kind of disparaging comment about them that I didn't try.)

Of course, I know some of the rules (The girl laughs at your jokes early on, even if she doesn't think they're funny; keep everything light, and don't discuss anything controversial on the first several dates; tell them they look great, even if they're only passable). I had a friend once who said after his divorce that he was wary of dating again because on a first date, "you're both so phony at that point." My problem is, I don't play those kinds of games, or at least I'm not any good at them. I just am who and what I am, and I call it like I see it. I try not to be ugly about it, but I have been known to be blunt. I appreciate the same kind of honesty from the young woman. Otherwise, you don't really like the other person; you just like the image they've created of them on their best behaviour.

It's like they tell preacher's in seminary: When you go to candidate for a church, you don't preach your best sermon, and you don't preach your worst. You preach one of your average sermons. That way, the people in the church have an honest idea of what they're going to get week in and week out. So, I believe both parties ought to just be real on a first date, so you know what you're getting.

I've found, however, when I am real and transparent early on (I'm not talking about being rude or unpleasant, just not putting on any airs), that young women think, "If that's him at his best, I don't what to see what he's like when the facade wears off." simply because it's assumed you're putting on a front to impress them.

So, I guess my question is: First, what are some of the rules regarding flowers and kisses, etc. Second, do I just need to practice up on my acting and lying skills to get further into a relationship, or is there a woman out there who will "take me as I am" warts and all?
 
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faith_2share is offline faith_2share Post #2  May 2,2010, 8:25pm
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First let me say, I can empathize with your feelings in this post. Dating in and of its self is complicated enough, but then when it becomes clouded by a lack of transparnecy it can be daunting.

For me being able to have and maintain a platonic friendship with someone of the opposite gender comes easy. I am, by God's deign, outgoing and friendly. However, I have not been very successful in the dating realm. I once asked a guy friend in Bible college why. He informed me that "I am not the gal guys date, I am the gal the guy takes home to mother after he is tired of dating". I suppose this is a compliment, but it is still a bit frustating. While I wouldn't mind being a more "successful" dater, I desire more to be better wife material. Further more, I suppose since I do not need to be dazzled, or doted on, I am not the challange or mystery that some guys are looking for. And though I believe in chemistry, I don't need to be held or kissed to know its there. In fact, I think there is too much emphasis placed on these things in dating causing it to be more difficult to maintain a romantic relationship. Again, this is not an ideal that I am finding common in the dating world today. So...I guess my friend was right!

To answer your questions though, I do not think there are set "rules" for flowers and such. I believe you should do what feels natural and comfortable for you. If she is the right gal for you, she will find your ways charming. Being sensitive to her likes and interests will help you though to know what to do and when she needs that little extra expression of love. Just rely on those listening skills of yours and you will know what to do!

As for the "take me as I am" question....Yes, there are still some single gals out here that realize that everyone has "warts and all" (as you put it). We're the gals that are finding dating as complex as you are!

I would recommend reading the Five Love Languages of Singles. I do not hold to everything that is stated in the book, but it was a very good read and it offers an interesting approach to viewing and living this single life of ours. If you do get chance to read it let me know, I would like to get your thoughts on it.
 
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PreachersSon is online now PreachersSon Post #3  May 8,2010, 3:49am
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Thanks for the book recommendation. I've heard of the "Five Love Languages" books, but weren't sure how orthodox they would be, or whether it would just be a lot of psychobabble. So, now I can check it out. I'm always looking for new titles to add to my list, even if I don't have much of a book budget right now. Probably the next book I buy will be an oppo (Opposition research) book called "Where Have All the Good Guys Gone?" I thumbed through it the last time I was at Mardel's, and it looks interesting. It tries to deal with the common lament of Christian woman that is listed in the title. It seems to argue that good men are out there, and available, but that Christian women overlook or reject them because they (the women) have a preconceived idea (mainly shaped by Hollywood) of what a good man is--or should be (I'm not saying I agree or disagree with that thesis, but it should provide an interesting glimpse into the female psyche.). I haven't read it, but that seems to be the gist of it. If you are looking for a good "oppo" for guys, you might look into "Wild at Heart." I don't necessarily buy everything in that book either, but it's an interesting and useful read. Anyway, thanks for the recommendation.

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faith_2share is offline faith_2share Post #4  May 8,2010, 6:58am
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I like your analogy of the football game. It did in fact make alot of since, but I think that today's dating society, though they might understand where you're coming from, would "play the game" that way. I guess that is why you and I have found ourselves in the "good at relationships;bad at dating" catagory.

Before I proceed any farther, I suppose I should admit to you that I am not sure if I am really qualified to answer your dating rules/rituals questions simply because I have not done alot of "casual dating". However, I offere my thoughts based on my perspective as a single, conservative, Baptist gal who has seen alot of dating do's and don'ts. I will not fault you, or anyone else for that matter, if you disregaurd what I have to say. For by my own admission, I am not anywhere near to being an expert on the matter. None the less, I will share my thoughts and would welcome feed back. With that said, here's my opinion on the topic for what its worth.

Personally, I find the world's idea of dating for the sake of "experience" a flawed approach to dating. I do not view dating as merely an opportunity to get better at dating and gain experience. Dating for me is deeper than that. It is spending time with someone who I share interests, views, and standards with. Its purpose is to help me better know what God wants from me and for me. (Suppose this is my "quality time" love language showing through in these statements.) The flowers, dinners, and physical chemistry aspect ought not be the foundation. But by the same token, they are needful. Flowers, gifts, physical contact, ect...are an expression of an inward feeling. Just as morter is needed between bricks to build a strong building; a strong lasting relationship needs those extra special "I love you and I think you're special" moments amidts its building blocks.

Now at the risk of sounding like I am contradicting myself, I will say if a guy who I had been seeing from a while had not shown some form of outward expression of his inward feelings for me I would (as most gals would) start to wonder what he was thinking or feeling. How soon to show these express these feelings really depends on the guy and gal. Again, this is why I recommended that "Five Love Languages of Love". It really helped me better understand my style of love and has helped me relate to others who are speaking different love languages.

I will conclude with this story....My brother, like some guys, went head over heels when dating. Flowers, opening the car door, nice dinners, ect. were things he did right away. Not because the gal (now my sister-in-law) wanted them or demanded them, but that was how he spoke "love". Sure she enjoyed these expressions of affection, but they were not necessary. She was content sitting close to him and spending time with him. His love languages....gifts and words of affirmation. Her languages....quality time and physical touch. They both "spoke" different languages, but over time learned to accept and speak the other's. To this day, he still spoils her with flowers and spur of the moment gifts, but he has also learned to plans surprise get aways for her and has a weekly date night where they just spend time together. After 7 years of marriage, two sons, and demanding work schedules, they are still very much in love. His flowers and actions were not fake or done to "win" her over, he just did what came natural to him. And because he was attentive and listened to her he learned what she needed.

I share their story to help me answer your question. I think a guy really ought to do what comes naturally for him. And if his is attentive and listens he will pick up on what the girl is looking for. Trust me, we girls are great at dropping hints!!

Well, I am not sure how much, if any, help my thoughts were, but there you have it....my thoughts! LOL
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PreachersSon is online now PreachersSon Post #5  May 12,2010, 1:56pm
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Thanks for your thoughtful response. I can agree with most of it. I would only say that, while girls may think they are good at dropping hints, guys probably aren't so good at taking them. It's been my experience, that a young woman wants a particular thing from her guy, but she doesn't want to tell him directly, since she wants it to be his idea, and for him to "surprise" her. I guess I'm a bit leery of "spooking" a young woman by, for instance, sending her flowers or gooey notes too soon, before she's ready for them. This whole thing would be so much easier if you'd just tell us! Although, I guess that would ruin it for you.

That said, I really did appreciate the post. It gave some insight into the mind of a "single, conservative, Baptist gal", and was helpful in a practical way. In particular, the example of your brother and his wife was useful in illustrating your point. Now I really have to get that "Love Languages" book.

I'm still a bit fuzzy when you say that a guy who you've been seeing "for awhile" needs to show some "outward expression" of his feelings. Would this be telling her how he felt, or flowers, notes, cards, etc., or would it need to be kisses, hugs, etc.? Keep in mind, I do believe in "no touch" untill marriage, which precludes most or all of the physical expressions untill marriage. Does that mean I'm doomed to a life of singleness? I know that many women treasure the handholding, kisses, etc., but most men appreciate sex as a measure of closeness with their wife, and it is definitely restricted to after the wedding, so shouldn't the other physical expressions be also? Sorry if that is a bit direct, but I couldn't see any other way to ask the question. Anyway, if you could clarify your meaning there on the expressions, and how that might be handled (No pun intended.), I'd appreciate it.

All in all, though, it really was a helpful post. By the way, did you notice, we have another commenter in the board?
Last edited by PreachersSon; May 12,2010 at 2:01pm. Reason: Proofreading
 
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faith_2share is offline faith_2share Post #6  May 15,2010, 10:32pm
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Sorry it has taken me a few days to reply to your last post. My schedule has been a bit hectic lately and has limited the amount of time I have to post like I would like.
I am glad to hear that you were able to find my comments to be of use. Quite frankly, I find that I am far better at talking out my thoughts/feelings than I am at writing them out. I am relieved to know that I didn’t completely confuse you. I do however, apologize that I was vague on the “outward expressions” I was speaking of in my post. I confess though, that I did so somewhat intentionally. I wasn’t trying to be difficult, but since I believe that each relationship is unique and each couples needs vary I think it is almost impossible for me to offer a very knowledgeable answer, which would apply to anyone but me. As in my last post, I can only offer my own personal likes/wants/needs on the subject. However, since you asked my opinion, I will offer it.

To help me explain my thoughts, I am going to use flowers as my example. For me, a guy bringing me flowers on the first date is not necessary to make a good impression, nor would I expect them at all while we were casually dating (unless it was for a holiday or my birthday that is….flowers during these times are nice to receive, no matter what the level of dating). However, once the dating moves from being casual (meaning: we are seeing one another, but not exclusively) to being more purposeful (meaning: we are exclusively seeing one another, with the purpose of persuing a long term relationship) flowers would be a welcomed gesture. I would like to make a side note here and say that a single flower or wildflowers are just as romantic, if not even more romantic, in my opinion than a large or store bought bouquet. But then again that is just me!

You see, during the beginning stages of dating when the couple is still getting to really know one another, gift giving can offer as sense of “enchantment” that can cloud a gal’s judgment. If she is being “swept off her feet” by a guy who can give her things, then what is the relationship founded on?

It doesn’t matter if its flowers, candy, or cards…when a girl gets them she instantly thinks the relationship is much more advanced and serious. Guys who know this usually do one of two things. They either over look this fact, or capitalize on it. Both can are equally dangerous.

The same is true of physical touching, but since I can only speak from observation on this point, I suppose I ought not to act as though I am an authority on the subject. However, I, like you, have very strong convictions about it and I believe that it is God’s design that physical touching be strictly limited before marriage. This not to say that before marriage that the couple can’t hold hands or that the guy can't put his arm around the girl once they are dating “purposefully”. However, they would be best to keep in mind that a chased relationship is a blessed relationship and therefore limiting physical touching allows the them to not confuse passion for genuine feelings of love and unity.

I guess what I am trying to say is this…. I would much rather have a guy demonstrate courtesies, like opening the car door for me or standing when I enter the room, then buy me things at the start of a relationship. Any guy can run to Walmart and pick up a flower arrangement, but not every guy can or knows how to make a gal feel like she’s a million bucks without spending a dimes. Forthermore, I would rather spend more time talking to the guy and really connecting with who he is, rather than be concerned about “isn’t he going to kiss me?” or “why didn’t he guy me flowers”. These, and other, outward expressions of love will naturally flow as the relationship becomes more “purposeful” and less “casual”. I know, call me old fashioned, but I am a sucker for chivalry!

Well, I hope I was able to better explain what I meant. If not, let me know and I will try again…LOL! I look forward to hearing your thoughts.
 
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PreachersSon is online now PreachersSon Post #7  May 20,2010, 9:17pm
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I know what you mean about not having the time to post as much as you would like. I just started a second job last week, and between that, family, and staying upright and coherent, that doesn't leave much time for nonessentials. It doesn't help that this site is my third or fourth checkdown when I do get on. Sometimes, I barely have time to check my regular inbox, much less the eharmony one, and as for posting on topics... Still, I try to make as much time as I can.

When you said that you are better verbally than in writing, I tend to be the other way around. I'm much better at expressing my thoughts on paper than in person, if for no other reason than that writing has a built in concision--and I do tend to go on and on. "I'm not boring; I'm thorough." 8) That was one thing they taught us in Homiletics class: Be exhaustively thorough in your study, but in presenting the sermon, only give enough of your research so that people can follow your train of thought. In person, I generally opt to show you all my research, which is more than most people care to hear. In writing, you can always go back and cut out the "nonessential" stuff.

Anyway, on the topic of the thread, I think we may have talked it to death for the moment. Your posts have helped quite a bit, and cleared up some confusion for me. All I was really looking for with the thread was a women's perspective (Sometimes we guys are a bit clueless about what goes on in those minds of yours, and, especially if you like the guy, you tend to be too coy about how you see us.) So...
 
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faith_2share is offline faith_2share Post #8  May 21,2010, 8:56pm
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Yeah....I think we have pretty much talk out this subject. I can't really think of anything else to share on the topic. Guess, we will have to be forced to start a new thread! Thanks for taking the time reply though.
 
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takemeasIam is offline takemeasIam Post #9  July 15,2010, 3:13pm
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PreachersSon wrote :
Okay, I'm not sure how to explain this without sounding like I'm patting myself on the back, but hear me out. I don't make friends easily, but when I do, I'm good at it. I'm good at listening, knowing when to sympathize and when to try to be helpful, understanding the other person's needs, making time for them, etc. That's why I have several strong friendships with women in my life. I'm close with my Mom, my sister, several female cousins, and at least one of my aunts (My mom's kid sister, who is only a few years older than me) as well as the preacher's daughter at my old church, and several other women. (Of course it's not exclusively women, I have plenty of guy friends too, including a mix of family and non-family as well.) These aren't casual, hi/bye relationships, but real friendships.

So, the problem is, I'm good at relationships, but bad at dating. I've done pretty well in the romantic relationships I've had, as far as the relationship goes. And I do okay sending cards and flowers and such within a relationship. I don't navigate the maze of dating to get to a relationship well, however. The dating rituals don't have any real bearing on having a real relationship as far as I can see, but you have to ace them before most women will give you a chance.

I never know how soon is too soon to send roses, for instance. Is that too forward on a first date (or a first meeting, after time in OC on eHarmony)? When is it an insult not to try for a kiss? (Personally, I believe in "no touch" until marriage, or at least engagement, but I've had women tell me they felt insulted that I didn't try to kiss them after an exceptional first date. Not that they would have let me, but it was some kind of disparaging comment about them that I didn't try.)

Of course, I know some of the rules (The girl laughs at your jokes early on, even if she doesn't think they're funny; keep everything light, and don't discuss anything controversial on the first several dates; tell them they look great, even if they're only passable). I had a friend once who said after his divorce that he was wary of dating again because on a first date, "you're both so phony at that point." My problem is, I don't play those kinds of games, or at least I'm not any good at them. I just am who and what I am, and I call it like I see it. I try not to be ugly about it, but I have been known to be blunt. I appreciate the same kind of honesty from the young woman. Otherwise, you don't really like the other person; you just like the image they've created of them on their best behaviour.

It's like they tell preacher's in seminary: When you go to candidate for a church, you don't preach your best sermon, and you don't preach your worst. You preach one of your average sermons. That way, the people in the church have an honest idea of what they're going to get week in and week out. So, I believe both parties ought to just be real on a first date, so you know what you're getting.

I've found, however, when I am real and transparent early on (I'm not talking about being rude or unpleasant, just not putting on any airs), that young women think, "If that's him at his best, I don't what to see what he's like when the facade wears off." simply because it's assumed you're putting on a front to impress them.

So, I guess my question is: First, what are some of the rules regarding flowers and kisses, etc. Second, do I just need to practice up on my acting and lying skills to get further into a relationship, or is there a woman out there who will "take me as I am" warts and all?
I would want you to be yourself. I do not want a man to be fake. I wanna know the real him I will give him the same. I will be me.

Warts? Are you a prince who needs a kiss to get outta ya froggie costume.
 
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PreachersSon is online now PreachersSon Post #10  July 16,2010, 10:52pm
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I think there's a merchandising idea in there. They sell "princess" costumes for Halloween, don't they? Maybe they could sell frog costumes for the guys.
 
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